Wasting away, wasting time?

[maxib]

Hi all I have been scanning forums for days to try and find the cause of wasting.

You know the one where all your water parametres are fine.

You treat with metrodizanole and a de wormer.

You add empsolm salts, garlic to food, raise the temp.

You do big water changes, swap to premium foods.

You cull the fish with symptoms.

The problem doesnt distinguish between any particular fish.

There is no major aggression.

As soon as I culled the first two with sunken bellies then another fish starts to get a sunken belly and will not eat.

Is this illness still a bit of a mystery? I have checked forums and several members have posted similar stories. No treatment seemed to work.

Thanks.

[Buccal]

One in twenty to succumb to this condition very occasionally is about acceptable levels.

If its a problem re-occurring thing then it's holes in your management regimes.

There are so many do's and dont's with people saying they do opposite and are fine, but are they ?.

Correct KH

Low nitrate levels (water changes). (steady incremental water changes, not big ones causing sudden change),,, unless your perfectly matching new water to old, in this case big changes ok.

Heavy oxygenation and water turnover.

Waiste solids in tank and filter kept at low levels ALWAYS, no exceptions for being busy.

Temperature solid level 27'c.

Then there's low level combat like:

Specie mixing and territories in relation to stress.

Food, which can be a big management final outcome most don't think of,,,,, good quality foods can still cause issues with more waiste generation than what has to be.

Classic example of this food thing is spectrum versus sera-flora,,,,,, spectrum produces larger and more constant red excretion which actually takes longer to degrade by beneficial bacteria than most other foods.

Then there's sera-flora, waiste appears dark and large with expulsion rate constant for good regularity, but expulsion not as often as spectrum,,, also with further benefits sera-flora excretion is not only in smaller amounts, but beneficial bacteria break it down at least 40% faster.

People are always looking for problems they can put their fingers on (fast solutions),,, but usually it's the whole bigger picture rolled into one.

Just because one person says he does a no no and his fish are fit and healthy means absolutely nothing.

Smoking Definetely causes cancer,,,, but one that smokes all their life and lives a full life and no cancer, certainly doesn't mean smoking doesn't cause cancer.

Also fish live 4-8 years average,,, so if your fish have suffered a holocaust issue then they may be compromised with weakend immune sytems and remain suseptable,,, or even affected fish from past issues just take time to present the issues in a tank that is presently in good condition,,, then dumb found the aquarist.

Constant stability of complete requirements Is the key,,,,,,,, as I keep saying, forget about keeping the fish, KEEP THE WATER.

The water in turn will keep or look after your fish.

Use my given info above and write yourself a check list and adhere to it as strict practice.

In general these gram negative bacteria issues are not that contagious but does spread easier the more the tank is insanitary, so culling in a tank with already issues is a must.

Also all fish are subjected to the primary issues because of the intense closed system, so as all fish present issues one by one at different timing rates, it appears more contagious than what it really is.

This here is cause and management of very common issues of gram negative bacterias and others alike like turburculosus.

Protozoa flagellates present a very similar final outcome and is very stubborn, and again doesn't easily spread unless conditions go down hill,,, but the flagellates are not often encountered and most commonly mistaken with gram negative bacteria issues.

New fish entering aquarium can go through a prevention process of quarantine running dimetronidazole (antibiotics) in water.

If no quarantine, then metrodizinole in entire fish food fed for first three days of every fish addition.

Should this be a sticky ???? Unless I'm thought of full of bullshizzz

[maxib]

Tank 5x2 approx 400 litres.

2200lph UV cannister with matrix (2L), macropore, sponge, filter floss

Temp. 25. Now moving up to 27.

2x Flameback

2x Iceberg Blue

2x Hongi RedTop

2x Acei Tanzania

4x Saulosi

3x Maingano with about 10 fry

2x Dragonblood

1x Bristlenose

KH 10 degrees of hardness GH 10 degreesmof hardness

PH 8.0

Your definately not full of craP.

[maxib]

Some of the posts from years ago (2003-2004) from veteran members tell the whole story.

Maintanence schedule, quarantine, feed, stocking etc. These people are spot on with what their doing and are baffled by the loss of fish.

Some even try several medications, quarantine, cullimg etc. to no avail.

Is it actually a resistant gram negative bacteria, is it protozoan, stress.

Ive been reading post after post. One post the person decided culling was pointless because as soon as a fish was culled the next one became ill. Even during treatment before fish where ill. Take a fish out, next one sick and so on.

Reports of several medications not working.

I would concede im doing thing wrong but I have growing healthy fry in the main tank.

Also, this all seemed to start with acei tanzania. Does that make a difference?

[Buccal]

The fishes guts could be loaded with gram negative bacteria before you receive them.

It then can be distributed in the excretion leaving the fish.

Once fish are infected it's very hard to turn around,,, small counts of the bacteria entering a healthy fish with a good immune system in a healthy environment should see the fish resist the disease.

Keeping fish in 25'c water is totally fine,,, but fishes metabolism works faster and everything healthy wise ticks over faster in fishes systems in a temp of 27'c.

Whilst 25'c is fine,,, 27'c is a step closer to throttling out the nasties.

Everything in its entirety must be followed.. If signs of bacterial issues are present.

I recently helped a mate with a tank full of rays that developed the most aggressive gram negative bacterial strain I've ever seen.

Within two days edges of discs were rotting away with large pits rotting out further in on the disks.

I got him to whip them out into a smaller tank with salt and antibiotics and they hung in there.

Main tank was left running as per normal with no fish and completely swamped with bleach and left running for another three days.

Stripped the lot down and sundried everything.

Put it all Back together with a added k media over head tumbler and three massive sponge filters for intermittent filter cleans and relieve his two massive cannisters between cleans.

I saw his cannisters opened after the issues,,, before that he said he always keeps clean,,,,, well you should have seen it,,, a gram negative bacteria factory,,, he said he was busy the last month,,, see ?, it's not good enough.

Only a tiny palm full of fish keepers discover the sweet spot for total health in fish.

It must be understood that issues are usually a result of primary issue that took place before that. So issues caused by issues.

Gets bloody complicated.

Tanks or systems usually experience worst instances when they are past 3 years old or more,,, as bad bacterias evolve and mutate to do what they do best (live of waiste and become deposited into fish causing internal infections leading to waisting)

It's not that mysterious to me.

My whole 33000 liter system succumbed to a weak style of gram negative bacterial issue.

I pin pointed my bore water changed on me to a very low carbonate hardness. Which I now reverted back to scheme and also add additives.

I upgraded filter clean regimes.

Stabilized temp at solid 27'c ever since.

Changed foods to cleaner choices.

Introduced a third day a week of no feeding.

And jeez, it took six months to get it back

It must be accepted its here to stay,, so you must work with it then around it.

Imagine if I locked you in your bedroom for the rest of your life with no toilet,,, then pushing you food under the door.

You'd have to live in your own filth and you'd succumb to disease eventually.

This is why it's very important to up keep all needed regimes in your aquarium.

If your fish are waisting, don't try to pump extra food like most people tend to,,, your just fueling the very problem.

It's always going to be a issue at some point,,, if you keep fish for a long time.

If its out of control,, strip it down and start again,,, then review where you obtain fish from.

As I said before,,,, there's been a few big eastern breeders in history that simply closed down to continual issues.

[Buccal]

And just to add,,, the older the fish is, the more suseptable it is to GM bacteria,,,,,, young fish are quite resistant.

So young fish amongst older fish that are effected will be more resilient.

Keeping a 2-6 year old fish correctly is harder than keeping a 1-2 year old fish.

[PlecoSam]

Buccal are saying if your fish live in their own waste, their waistline will diminish? :lol:

[maxib]

Lol. I dont want my missus living in her own waste to lose her waistline (not in our house anyway).

I havent actually had a fish die yet. Two were getting skinny I treated all fish for seven days with food soaked in metro. The two didnt improve after ten days so I culled them. All other fish are fine.

This one fish hasnt deteriorated any further.

Ive been reading gram negative bacteria very resistant to any medication due to cell wall etc.

Maybe only solution to eliminate like you said everything out and sunbake. Total UV exposure.

I clean my cannister every fortnight no longer than 1month.

Replace the filter wool each time but I dont disturb the matrix very much.

Any way thanx for your input.