advice needed on white lip modka

[fishinf]

hi i recently bought a colony of white lip madoka with the largest male being 19 cm

any way what ive found is when these fish get so big they change shape and get quite round

with a very hi forehead and back and under the jaw comes down ...... the fish where bought and breed from top breeders

when you scroll through google you mostly get the young fish with the eletric blue shape

but the big boy are there to just not as common

so im asking experanced fish keepers to let me know what they know il try to post up a few pics later

(if you havent seen a white lip madoka @19 cm maybe leave this to people who have or at least

state your guessing )thanks

[shannon]

I've seen them around the 20cm mark when grant had a colony and none of them changed shape from what I've seen at 5-10cm. I know exactly which photos you're talking about and I do believe that only one fish from your colony is 'odd' looking. The rest as far as I'm concern were perfect

[CichlidProfessional]

Ive got a fish close to 18cm...he hasnt changed at all...and if mdoka's did change it would be a noticeable process, which happens over time...Ive seen the picture (im sure you know who I am lol) and agree with Shannon, its the one odd looking fish (all the other look 100% normal)...the fish definitely get a higher back, and slightly curved forehead with age, however the mouth remains normal and the lips puffy...Im happy to be proven wrong and hope you were correct in saying it was the camera angle...However to me it looks like a deformity, or maybe an injury which the fish sustained at a young age, hence growing its head in such a way...One question to you, how many 19-20cm mdoka's have you seen? If many, have they all had the same traits as yours? You do seem confident in arguing its a normal trait with age....maybe contacting the breeder would result in answer...either way im not trying to argue, so please don't take anything I wrote the wrong way...as I said, I am happy to be proven wrong, the hobby is about educating, not arguing...Cheers

[Buccal]

I've grown them large and agree with above

[fishinf]

yeah il get in touch with the breeder ...the picture was a funny camera angle but the whole things got me wanting more info

to me the big ones look like they get this discus type shape where the little ones maybe 14cm and under have that peacock shape

anyway thanks for your replys

[fishinf]

these pics are from google to me there differant shape

one looks like it had a few high speed runs at a wall

[firthy13]

well i thought i better weigh in on this conversation. over the last 4 years i have had 30-40 adult Mdoka's come through my tanks. yes these guys do change physical appearance slightly with age. i have found that the age of the fish, rather then size affects their appearance.

here are a few of my current fish. 3 years old, around 19-20cm.

this is one of my males i had a few years ago. unfortunately this is the only photo i have of him, but he was 26cm and over 6 years old.

these are about 2 years old and the biggest is about 15cm - notice the lips have not begun to change at this stage.

so as you can see from the last two photos they do get higher through the middle of the fish and the top lip does bigger and folds upwards and exposes the teeth.

[shannon]

The issue that was brought up regarding Maurice's fish had nothing to do with lips protruding or the body getting higher. The photos that have been put up on a Facebook page show 1 fish in the breeding colony that looks to have a strange overbite look to it. The bottom jaw is crooked and doesn't look correct.

All this post is doing is gathering back up that fish do change with age/size that doesn't mean a fish will become deformed as it gets older. If that's the case Maurice, why is it only one fish that raised eyebrows and not the whole colony? Not trying to start an argument but it was only ever one fish that was noticed by a few as not quite being right and not looking like the rest of the colony.

[shannon]

these pics are from google to me there differant shape

one looks like it had a few high speed runs at a wall

Maybe photos of the fish in question would be more helpful in the finding of an answer.

[fishinf]

shannon maybe you didnt read the opening post this is a post on weather the white lip madokas change shape with size and age

thats all

[firthy13]

I had no idea that this thread was over a picture posted on facebook. That was not stated in the original post.

Thanks for clearing that up shannon. Next time you want a question answered fishinf, kindly give us all the information next time.

[fishinf]

this post is only about madokas shapes changing with age and size nothing else please cont feel you were being tricked i asked a question and you answered it ...thank you

[shannon]

shannon maybe you didnt read the opening post this is a post on weather the white lip madokas change shape with size and age

thats all

I read the opening post but I also believe that without the previous discussions on other pages then this thread wouldn't exist, hence the connection of the two topics. but you're right this post has nothing to do with them my apologies.

[CichlidProfessional]

The pictured fish, had a "flat face", that was the main description, which resulted in a deleted post...the face and head shape was very "unusual"...The mouth was also downward facing...as fishinf states "discus" like shape...Fishinf if you could post that exact same photo that was on fb, It would definitely help with solving this problem

[fishinf]

this is what im concerned about from this

to this

and this is my fish the concern is many of my fish are like the second

[malawi sand diver]

Hi mate

This fish in the photo below was my fish I had about 3 years ago.

He was the biggest white lip I had, would have been around the 20cm mark.

At the moment, I have 2 large males around the same size.

I have noticed that a lot of deformities are coming through with the fry that were produced about a year ago. Not sure of from where.

That photo of the fish, I'm sorry to say has a slight mouth deformity. It doesn't appear as bad as some other deformities they get, like the jaw to the side mouth deformity, but the lips at that size should protrude out more.

It still looks like a great healthy fish, just best not to breed with that guy and choose another male. If you want to breed them, I have a spare 20cm male. I know firthy has some aswell.

Regards, Rob

[fishinf]

yeah ive got other males to breed with...... ive got other white lips growing into the same look ashame to cull them until ive got all the info

thanks for your reply

[CichlidProfessional]

You should have no concern for the other fish, the second picture is a healthy, normal and mature Mdoka ...The camera angle definitely made this fish look much more flat faced on fb (maybe post that photo, just for a comparison)...It still looks very round but, and Firthy13's 26cm 6 year fish dosnt share that charcteristic...the lips on the fish are not very large for its size...Do you know how old it is?...I agree with Malawi Sand Diver, and believe its got a deformity, it would nice fish for a display tank, cheers

[firthy13]

Cull the deformed fry. But that large male, even though deformed, should live out his days in a display tank. I currently have around 40 fry growing up and have a 3cm fry that looks like your male. His face is noticeably flatter then the others. Also have one with a bent back.

The issue is they were only on the import like for a very short period of time and very few shipments come in. All the whitelips in oz are definitely related.

[Buccal]

I was among the first to get them.

And now onto my third generation of breeders.

I have experienced no generic deformity.

However I have noticed one in every thirty or so get that sunken depression behind the gill plates,,, which is a deformation that's seen in a lot of species with good genetics,,,, (as long as its very occasional it's not an issue).

From being young to growing old,,, they do undergo dramatic changes very slowly.

Most breeders/fish keepers don't keep fish long enough to actually realize just how different most full size Malawi end up looking compared to their young appearances.

Take the Protomelus Annectans for instance.

The fish in question is Definetely deformed with small (pug) lips.

It's repetitive deformation thats a problem.

Seeming we have one bloodline here,,, it's the duty of the breeders to remove parents that produce munted offspring.

There would be still a lot parents out there that produce straight fry,,, so these should be selected.

Selection is easier by breaking into trios or pairs,,, then observing offsprings.

[malawi sand diver]

You are right CichlidProfessional, my white lip I had a few years ago in the picture was a perfect specimen, just that he was swimming at the time and his head is turned to face the camera.

Its good we have breeders like Buccal & Firthy, as those guys have ethics and cull the deformed fry. Some of the white lips going around lately have really bent jaws. Species with jaws that protrude like this seem to be more susceptable to jaw deformity.

Here are my current lot, a couple of nice large males in the mix.

[Buccal]

When young, the lips are quite pointy and narrow.

When well matured, the lips become quite squared and fluted in the center.

Also having slightly outwards turned showing slightly the insides of the rather raspy looking tooth structure.

When looking at the three pheno's here, Mdoka, Gissel, Tanz,,,,, they are a incredibly beautiful fish standing out from the rest.

Any one of these species housed with quality electric yellows in a large display as a two specie only is a strong statement.

[malawi sand diver]

True, and what is best about white lips is that the females look so good. When you look at gissel, tanzania, mbamba etc, I have kept all those but the females are a greyish color. In comparrision, white lip females are just as colourful as males, sometimes hard to tell from the males. This is unique for malawi haps and you won't find a better looking malawi hap female than the white lip. The easiest way I have found to tell males and females apart is the tip of the male's dorsal will be more pointed. Even when you vent them, it seems harder to tell males and females apart for some reason. As you mention, they look great in with yellows, especially since all fish (boys & girls) are colourful.