NSWCS buying power?

[zigzagfish]

I'll try have soemthign in writing for april meeting, so hopefully Foti you can too

oh when I say rarer just means non electric yellows something different.

and yes I know e yellows are the best selling fish.

what I know some hobbiest will spend arm and a leg hoping to get their money back and realise the market crashed and they are stuffed.

just check out the L cat scene. it's pretty much dead here.

when Grant put up a list of importable fish (like the feather fins) there were fair bit of interest. Great price but once again someone is still taking the risk. Also whoever takes the fish must write a monthly journal/observation thus knowledge sharing is mandatory.

Gday everyone

This is my 2 cents worth I have been part of the committee for the past 3 years and I have enjoyed it so far , its hard work , we are trying to preserve species of fish that are disappearing from the hobby , most people think we can just come up with the fish using a magic wand , well let me tell you its very hard to come up with 70 to 80 fry or sub-adults of most species that have nearly gone that’s what makes it hard not been able to get the fish in the first place , and if we do happen to find the fish it takes a lot of work and tank space and risk of loosing the fish till they all go to new owners , the last fish we tried to introduce to the breeders program all die from white spot before we even got them that’s why we didn’t have them , so as you can see is not as simple to organise fish , for all the people suggesting about introducing new or old species just say ( if we do something like you are suggesting are you going to donate tank space , water , power , food and time during the organising of the fish ??? ) its funny to read the tread and what people write but when it comes to be involve in being part of the committee at every AGM we always straggle to fill positions , its easy to criticise but hard to be involve . .

It would be great if at every AGM people put their hand up and put in for a year , but like always we struggle to fill positions people are to busy or don’t like the politics , always find excuses. And then people criticise well get involve so you can have a say its easy to sit on the fence , if we all like the club to get bigger and better people need to step up .

In regards to the meetings I find that as a club we need to teach people about the hobby yes may be for some people that think they know it all it mite not be much use or find it boring but hey you are not the only member , we try to make talks interesting and try to bring new ideas that people can put into practice and may be save money .

In regards to the fish that go though the auction , well I don’t know if everyone come to every meeting I haven’t miss any in 3 years and yes sometimes we do get a run of yellows or blues but they sell and we do get a variety of species that you will never find in a shop for sale so what’s wrong we have the best of both world different and cheap fish .

For people who make suggestions, as a committee we always welcome new ideas but like Kevin said in writing .

GIANNIZ

In regards to the L’s I don’t know if you know they are all illegal fish as a club we cant promote illegal fish .

We are lucky in Australia most fish keep a reasonable value , in America you would be lucky if you get 50c for a electric yellow here we still get $5 to $6 and we complain.

And one more thing from January next year all imports will stop and that’s coming from Grant so from next year we wont have a choice we will have to find fish here in Australia as we wont be able to import any and that will make things even worse .

Cheers

Lionel

ZigZagFish

[Citypainter]

I used to be member and probably still would be but I never make it to more than 1 meeting a year.

When I do go I like to see old mates and aquaintences.

I like to see whats up for auction.

I like to hear the talk and the people, especially the new faces at the tables learning how to make fry savers etc. The club is there for all who want to be members.

I would to think that most individuals join because they have something to offer. But I think there are plenty who join because they have something to gain.

I liked gaining the Cichlid Circular magazine. I liked gaining knowledge. I liked gaining contacts to buy, sell and swap with.

These days I give more fish away than sell.

I have really liked some fish and have set out to breed them. (Americans) I currently have some fry but the main fish I want to breed are not quite ready yet.

With a breeding program you don't need a club. You just need some mates with a common interest.

Kevin Sorenson was the person that originally bred Veija zonatum so I bought some of his fry

I showed an image of Veija zonztum here in the photography forum.

A member here called Pat Williams, (Whom I had never met) pm'd me and generously gave one of his spares. My other pair were already breeding. I gave some of my spares to Craig Poulton. Pat emailed me to say he had fry as well. Hope fully Craig Poulton will soon have fry too.

Between 4 of us there will be pleny of Zonatum around for years to come.

Yellow done the same with Pearsei.

I hope to do it with Bocourti.

Now folks

Stop expecting everyone to do everything for you.

Do it for yourselves.

Its not that hard.

[zigzagfish]

I used to be member and probably still would be but I never make it to more than 1 meeting a year.

When I do go I like to see old mates and aquaintences.

I like to see whats up for auction.

I like to hear the talk and the people, especially the new faces at the tables learning how to make fry savers etc. The club is there for all who want to be members.

I would to think that most individuals join because they have something to offer. But I think there are plenty who join because they have something to gain.

I liked gaining the Cichlid Circular magazine. I liked gaining knowledge. I liked gaining contacts to buy, sell and swap with.

These days I give more fish away than sell.

I have really liked some fish and have set out to breed them. (Americans) I currently have some fry but the main fish I want to breed are not quite ready yet.

With a breeding program you don't need a club. You just need some mates with a common interest.

Kevin Sorenson was the person that originally bred Veija zonatum so I bought some of his fry

I showed an image of Veija zonztum here in the photography forum.

A member here called Pat Williams, (Whom I had never met) pm'd me and generously gave one of his spares. My other pair were already breeding. I gave some of my spares to Craig Poulton. Pat emailed me to say he had fry as well. Hope fully Craig Poulton will soon have fry too.

Between 4 of us there will be pleny of Zonatum around for years to come.

Yellow done the same with Pearsei.

I hope to do it with Bocourti.

Now folks

Stop expecting everyone to do everything for you.

Do it for yourselves.

Its not that hard.

Great way of thinking excellent comment .

Cheers

Lionel.

[Ged]

I agree that this is a worthwhile topic for discussion but the thread had moved off this topic and onto why people don't attend NSWCS meetings. I have tried to remove the other posts as best I can to maintain the integrity of the thread.

Please keep it on topic and stop the personal attacks.

Gianniz was aware of the reason for it's removal

[intern1]

Why dont we try develop a list of fish that people are interested in compelting the breeding program in. I remeber with the similis there was a great deal of interest in the fish.

Maybe if everyone can make a comment on two South American, and Africans they would like to see in the program maybe it may be possible to generate some interest.

Cheers John

American

I would have to say for me its one of the Geophagus species.

- problem is that they do need large tang space

- problem related to species is that you do see alot of crosses and dull colored fish

African

I seriously believe like couchy said Yellows are a great idea

- problem crosses are very common

- pro dont need large tank space

- pro everyone wants them

- problem dull colored fish

A copadichromis species wouldnt be so bad something like the azerues, chrosytnatus, mloto

- pro colorful males

- problem dont see them to often no days

- problem alot of crosses with blues and auloncara

- pro dont need large tank space

feel free to add your ideas

[malawi sand diver]

A lot of the fish we need to preserve are not on the allowable imports list. Especially with Malawis.

So its up to those that have these fish already to get involved with the breeding challenge. Its a fantastic initiative.

A lot of the fish are rare because noone wants to keep them. In our cichlid society, these are the only dedicated people who will sustain the populations of the rarer fish - people with an appreciation of the specific specicalisations of particular fish, rather than just buying the most colourful fish that most of the mainstream would buy. So its about 1% of cichlid keepers that keep the rare fish for future generations.

An example is recently I got an Otopharnyx Sp. 'Silver Torpedo' pair. They are getting endangered in the wild and I haven't seen any around here for ages. Apart from their elongated shape, people would probably choose another of the Otopharynx species over them for their display tank, so we may lose them here. I was going to offer some to the breeding program, but the unfortunately the female died in the recent heatwave and I didn't end up breeding them. I still have the male though so if I find a female again I will offer them, or if anyone has females, I will give them the male for free.

With regards to species that I would like to see bred and sustained, it would be some of the larger Malawi haps which I believe would be vulnerable to being lost. Something like Exochochromis Anagenys which may already be lost.

Regards, Rob

[Citypainter]

It would be good to try and get some true Citronellis.

Also some true Labiatus.

Our red devils are really hybrids and as a hooby we have made a big mistake by letting these crossbreed.

I have a great Red devil in a tank by himself but I have not seen in Australia either of the above in the pure form.

[sorroz]

A list of suggestions of fish that could be looked at by the committee for addition to the species maintenance program would be greatly appreciated by the committee

I think that Dimi comps are a species worth looking into

Keep them coming people

Only 2 more sleeps till auction mayhem

Kevin

[intern1]

I think its great to have larger haps on the list and im really for it but alot of breeders dont have the large tank space something that you can keep in a 3ft or 4ft should also be considered

[chorrylan]

Stop expecting everyone to do everything for you.

Do it for yourselves.

gotta agree with this sentiment!

I'm also not sure I see importation as much of an issue. There are actually quite a few hobbyist-friendly importations happening nowadays (grant and chris/aquapets in sydney, rav and brodie in melb). Talk to them, make sure they know what you're looking for and maybe even place an order.

The area where some group buying power could come in handy is in the more mundane fish equipment and materials space.

Some candidate products for which I think we could put together commercially-of-interest group buys together include

- seachem pond matrix (I think rosco is looking for 20+ litres),

- seachem prime (I'd chip in for a 2L bottle)

- salts and buffers

- foods (NLS, etc)

- heaters

- air pumps

- water pumps

- square bottom fish bags (I could easily muster up enough demand for 7 or 8 boxes of these just in canberra)

These are ideal as they don't involve stress about fish losses and it's fairly easy to muster up orders of considerable sizes.

These have occured in the past but usually organised by individuals rather than directly associated with the club. The critical steps are

1. a show if interest to work out what things are worth pursuing and an idea of the likely order size

2. someone to do a bid of leg work finding a retailer or wholesaler willing to deal. Ben at AoA, Paul at Tank Aquariusm and Anthony at Reef whatevr have all shown a willingness to sharpen their knives for a deal and th eclub has it's own sources that it'd make sense approaching.

3. repeat the gathering of interest based around the negotiated prices and items

4. someone to handle the logistics of ordering and distribution. Now here's the difficult part (and I assume part of the clubs reticence to get into this space.. .the committe are well and truly overloaded as it is). It's impractical for someone like me located in Canberra but.... starting this thread almost constitutes volunteering ggianniz :-)

[intern1]

Thats not a bad idea laurie

imagine NSWCS buying 100 bottles of 2 L prime and safe, and NLS spectrum

costs would be reduced slightly

[parkesg]

Hi All,

Intersting thread here. I am very aware that if the import laws do change then what we have here is all we will have.

I am happy to import fish of interest and just get them out there. The importing for me may well finish at end of June as that is when my import permit expires. From what I hear on the grapevine the new laws may be coming in September, so not worthwhile me renewing for a few months as the permit is quite expensive.

It also appears that this is not going to be a fast process to get this in front of the committee as noone has put up their hand to lead this.

Would be good to start to get the allowable species of interest, so importers can start to have a think about it.

I know dimi comps are fading out and agree with Kevin, I had been looking for some for months and months and finally found some a few months ago. I have a colony now and hopefyully can start to get them out there. Aulonocara is another one that I think would be great to get clean, fresh bloodlines. My next import has a few coming in which is great but still there are so many nice ones.

Would love to hear thoughts on species and moving on this quickly. I'm happy to support the process.

Cheers

Grant

[rosco]

It is an interesting thread indeed Grant so it looks like I will be placing an order next time .

As Laurie said, us Canberrans buy big and in bulk and I am in the process of setting 3 3x18x18 matrix sumps and 2x18x18 sump so I need matrix in bulk. But i am also running out of malawi salts and buffers so when I go to buy it again no doubt Laurie and myself will go halves in the large containers of them (20kgs from memory). Also fish bags is another thing we go through and it probably closer to 10 boxes (assuming 1000 bags to box), once you take bag size into consideration. come tot hinkof it, I could also use some prime as well and 3 water pumps for my new sumps. So that is a fair order just from the 2 of us. Sure between us we probably have around 80 tanks but still you get the point.

cheers

rosco

[Tank Aquariums]

Hey all

Interesting ideas guys, there would be alot of organising etc and who or how would those involved be recompensed for such work?

In regards to group buys of dry goods etc I am more than happy to oblige. As most of you know I post a list of products for sale regularly. If there are products that people want in enough numbers I am sure I can do better pricing.

The more you want the more room I have to discount, and the more barganing power I have with suppliers.

Let me know and I will help you out.

OH and I will never try to hide that this industry is my livelyhood as well as my passion.

Paul

[Sloany]

Very interesting topic indeed. It will be a tragedy if what Grant is saying becomes reality with imports coming to an end. A great shame indeed.

So it is certainly worthwhile compiling a list of the more vulnerable species now that are getting harder to find in Oz. As a starting point you could use the very extensive list that Norm Halliwell recently compiled and published in the NSWCS Circular (I could probably dig up a copy of it at home) covering fish he believed to be vulnerable or extinct in Oz. This list could be used to determine what species are actually still available and then if it were viable to commence a breeding program to increase their numbers.......As has been said before, if this was going to be run through the NSWCS a sub-committee would be required to run the program being made up of members outside of the Committee as the Committee already has sufficient tasks to carry out.

In relation to the idea of the Club bulk buying goods. Again a good idea however I think the Club would find itself in a bit of a moral dilemma. The club relies on sponsorship to support the running of the club as well as off-setting the cost of the magazine. Who are the majority of the Clubs sponsors? In the main your LFS. Bulk buying of goods could be viewed as the Club being in direct competion with their sponsors. If this is the case will their be an ongoing benefit for these LFS's to continue their affilitation with the Club?

Bulk buying opportunities might be better organised through ACE as there are great sponsors here that could arrange something like this. Paul from Tank has already made the offer and Ben from AoA is always willing to help.

My 2 cents worth and some food for thought.

[Gav]

I would echo Shane's thoughts on the potential conflicts of interest. its a very valid point.

for mine the club will become even more important if importation is ceased. here is my reasoning. before the new laws come in we are going to see massive importations of stuff on the list. the one that screams problematic is the peacocks. the hybrid stuff that comes in all the time will come in by the truckload and will be everywhere. the club can be the mainstay in keeping the peacock lines pure. if a concerted effort is put in to try and obtain and keep as many known pure lines as possible for peacocks then it means that long term the individual species will survive. if not, well we may as well just buy what is at the fish shops.

this will also be true for localities for fish such as tropheus, frontosa, cyprichromis, etc etc. its going to be a whole new era in fishkeeping where societies such as the NSWCS will have to lead the way in maintaining the purity of types through some sort of verification and certification process. how will this be done? to be honest, i dont know, it sounds like a logistical nightmare, but i tell you now if it is not done then in 10 years there will be a mish mash of all sorts of localities and/or species much in the way that its virtually impossible these days to find a nimbochromis livingstonii that doesnt have some level of venustus blood in it.

[johns]

I would echo Shane's thoughts on the potential conflicts of interest. its a very valid point.

for mine the club will become even more important if importation is ceased. here is my reasoning. before the new laws come in we are going to see massive importations of stuff on the list. the one that screams problematic is the peacocks. the hybrid stuff that comes in all the time will come in by the truckload and will be everywhere. the club can be the mainstay in keeping the peacock lines pure. if a concerted effort is put in to try and obtain and keep as many known pure lines as possible for peacocks then it means that long term the individual species will survive. if not, well we may as well just buy what is at the fish shops.

this will also be true for localities for fish such as tropheus, frontosa, cyprichromis, etc etc. its going to be a whole new era in fishkeeping where societies such as the NSWCS will have to lead the way in maintaining the purity of types through some sort of verification and certification process. how will this be done? to be honest, i dont know, it sounds like a logistical nightmare, but i tell you now if it is not done then in 10 years there will be a mish mash of all sorts of localities and/or species much in the way that its virtually impossible these days to find a nimbochromis livingstonii that doesnt have some level of venustus blood in it.

Hi Gav

I have a few hundred Nimbo Livinstoni growing up so should be able to keep them pure for a while yet

Johns

[efc01]

kilesa Grant, we need kilesa!!! (pm me or shon if you can help please)

[mattrox]

I know a person who has compiled a list of cichlids that he has been given anecdotal evidence that they are getting harder to source as well as using Norm's list and the NSWCS list. There are several people/groups that are working for the same goal, but people need to be open to pooling recources......and exchange information from different parts of the country. One particular person has contacted ACE and been banned when trying to share info and work for a common goal.

[FullyYellow]

Hey guys know this is a pretty ancient post. But reading this has got me thinking instead of sharing fish and pooling funds together. Why not everyone put some input into certain species of fish we are losing numbers in. Such as those you have not seen around for a while. This would serve as an indicator to multiple members that "hey maybe we should purchase these if the opportunity arises". Effectively we still are keeping our own fish and just aiming towards the goal of preserving different species. Kinda building awareness to members like myself that have only been in the fish scene for a few years.

Thanks FY.

[intangcity]

just an idea id like to see all the societys /clubs get together and try and have diff species imported or maybe from other countries therefor different bloodlines from fresh breeders.ive been thinking if 15 people buy the same species from tankraised germans arnt we just breeding family members.whos to say four diff breeders from one country doesnt have the same bloodline unless they have wc.ive been seeing a list of late going around stating what countries we can import from but i only hear of fish coming from very few of those countries,maybe the importers need to act as well

i know changing the list takes a long time but if recognised organisations stood together surely thats got to say something.

as for a program as discussed youd have to allow for changing shifts from tangs to malawi etc.which is happening right now.i think too many people are in it for a quick buck these days.