Wild Caught Dwarfs

[Alan]

This is an "evergreen" subject, and one that we should really sit back and consider carefully. Just think for a moment, we live in a market driven economy, and if there is no market for the product that we have spent so much time and effort to produce, then the whole exceresise is pointless.

There is always the cry "we need wild stock to maintain the blood lines in our captive bred animals" ......... Bull !!! When was the last time a thoroughbred stud master put a wild Tibetan poney over a brood mare to sire a Melbourne Cup winner ????

Where would a 'Fancey Guppy' breeder be if he decided to go back to wild caught stock????..... Yeah up the creek without a paddle for the next hundred years !

Why am I writing this ? Well for the last few years I have been maintaining a stock of "wild " Apistogramma cacatuoides, , you know , the guys with the long dorsal and caudal filaments and a few yellow and black blotches !! .... Well nobody wants cacs these days unless they are red, double red, or triple red . These days 'wilds' don't even rate.

Secondly, I was part of the "Krib Project" on the old 'Dwarf Cichlid " page, and 18 months or so ago obtained some wild caught Pelvicachromis pulcher. Seemed everyone was bleating for new blood. So gave it my best shot.

Survival rate was not good, 40% !! One male and 3 females out of ten fish (and I am no novice to fish keeping)

The mateings were made. The best marked and coloured pair of wilds,.. A "Krib Profect" albino to wild female, and a "domestic" male to wild femle.

Aside from the Albino to wild cross, the rest are pretty ordinary.

F1 wilds are as varied as all get out from no spots at all, to spots in the caudal, or spots in the dorsal,or both ! Seems there are no two fish the same. The wild to domestic are not much better except for lighter and better body colour.

If I was a customer in the LFS looking to buy Kribs and had the choice of 'wild' or captive bred,,,,, guess what ????? And wild caught are way more expensive than farm bred. !!!!

Alan.

[23Skidoo]

I think you are missing the point, sure fancy fish breeders and dog breeders and all sorts of breeders, would be set back by adding wild blood to their line breeds.

But you do need to remember that the features you are selectively breeding for are removing those fish from their natural bodyshape, colour even behaivour.

And you seem to be boo-hooing that no-one wants to buy your fish. No one wants to buy mine either, but i take pleasure from replicating their environment and allowing them to reproduce in the most natural way i can provide. If the only desire you have from breeding fish is to cash in. Then re-evaluate why you have spent so much time in the hobby.

Also, where's the problem with no two fish the same from your krib spawn. The whole purpose of adding wild blood is too refresh the gene pool, by allowing an introduction of 50% new genes, particularly wild caught, you will increase the line breeding potential of your fish, instead of 3-6 generations (or however many you choose to breed)

I don't mean to sound Narky, it's just introducing fresh genetic information into any restricted population should be the ultimate goal of breeders. Not breeding the perfect guppy!

[reddstagg]

The reason dogs and horses differ from fish, okay if you had a pair of kelpies, you breed them, you give the babies away (assuming they are similar to fish most people buy 4 or a group together) so they have 4 floating around there back yard, they breed and there given away....ect ...ect ...ect INBREEDING

Fish are different then horses and dogs ...as far to often brother and sister are often breed to stablise colours, thats why every 3 generations in guppies new blood is bred into the lines, if this isnt done it cause's mega problems in dwarfs, im sure there would be an uproar in the dog community if 30% of the puppies had sinal deformites and mouth deformites, or if they started to deteriorate because of inbreeding.

Fish are different because its way too easy to inbreed. New Fish arnt coming in from outside the country so most of the fish within the country are related, Thats why new blood is needed. (its sad but true) without it the fish would disappear out of the hobbie

Dean

[Th0mas]

Alan,

Your effort is definitely appreciated, unfortunately there aren't enough of those who understands the importance of this exercise.

Some of the wild caught fish maybe dull compared to the line bred variants (eg. double/triple red version of agassizi and cacautoides). However there are species that are naturally spectacular (eg. inirildae, bitaeniata, macmasteri, pandurini, etc). The unfortunately thing is that most if not all of the second lots aren't the bred and butter fish, usually quite expensive, require experience to keep/breed and therefore no real demand for them.

If we stop importing foriegn stock, the bloodline within the country will only confined to a small gene pool and our stock quality will only degrade in quality over generations. I've seen some really poor quality agassizi/cacautoides/nijsseni where they have inherited the bright colour of their parent but have bent spine, odd eyes, bent mouth, etc. A typical result of excessive inbreeding within a tiny gene pool.

The unfortunate fact is the aquarium industry isn't interested in supporting local breeder to produce quality stock - all they're after is the commercial interest (cheap local supply of bread and butter fish that sells well with a good margin).

We need to have more dedicated people like yourself, in order to ensure the local quality is maintained with optimal quality. Breeding with wild stock does not guarantee good colour of the sibbling, but no body will know unless it's tried. This can be fruitless in the shortterm, but definitely worth the effort for the future.

The "Double red" variant of apistogramma don't just appear in the F1 breed, but with many generations of mixing and matching of line breeding from different source to achieve the stable strain. So someone has put in their effort, but this does not happen with one or two generations. It is a long term projetct where result is not certain, and that's the part of the challenge. But the cost of time/money can be prohibitive, without support of our local industry certainly makes this very difficult.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Thomas.

[reddstagg]

And Alan,

If you are struggling to sell your fish, let the board know, im currently looking for any decent dwarfs, and your wild caughts would be fantastic!

Dean