Boots n all Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 This is a peice of a thread from "Planet catfish, some of you might have been following it, the thread took many turns and some interesting statments were made, including the one l liked the most by one guy who said he could pick the difference between local and imported L046's. But this is the one posting in that thread that will answer some questions that have been asked on this forum and other forums before. READ ON...................................................................................... Hello everybody. As a brazilian biologist and part of the IBAMA staff, I think I should say a few words about the zebra pl*co... This species is ENDEMIC to the Xingu River Basin, what means that there is NO Hypancistrus zebra in Peru, Colombia, Boliva, or anywhere. Just in Brazil. Period. If anyone is exporting this species from other countries, the fish are being smuggled from Brazil, and then sold there. Period. This species is banned from the commercial trade (capturing, selling, exporting), being allowed the capture for scientific purposes, through approval of the research project and supervision. Any specimen captured for scientific research can NOT be sold, since it's banned from the trade. If any institution gets a collecting/exporting license and sells the obtained specimens, it's doing something ILLEGAL. Period. Any wild-caught zebra plec for sale is ILLEGAL, and came from a sort of smuggling, even if it's offered for sale in a responsible and reputable LFS. Buying it is supporting the called "black market". Period. A friend from Pará, an ornamental fish distributor/seller/exporter, told me that the zebras captured nowadays are smaller, being harder and harder to catch. Most collectors get a bunch of juvies, and virtually NO adult. When they get adults, they get YOUNG adults, no more full-grown specimens. Not to mention the fishermen have to dive a lot deeper, almost twice the deep they used to go to catch zebras. This IS a hard and solid FACT that shows the overexploitation of the zebras. Period. Barbie wrote: Let's make this clear yet again. Zebras are NOT protected or listed as possibly endangered species. They are simply banned from export by Brazil. Period. That doesn't mean this isn't a good thing, it just means that the information that people keep insisting on repeating is sometimes a far cry from the truth. Not exactly... Not only the zebra is banned from the "safe-list" of the aquarium trade, but it IS also in an endangered/ unknown freshwater fish list provided by IBAMA. Gonna find the link and post it here. Best regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wui39 Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 Thanks for the info mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 We know that Zebras have been in the aquarium world for 15 years and not much more. For a species to be exploited to the endangerd status in that short time is pretty astounding. How ever, this fish has been bred in captivity in tanks all over the world. I personally know of breeders in Canada, USA, Germany and NewZealand and I am sure there are many more in other parts. Just cruising the online auctions it would appear that tank bred juvenile zebra plecos are worth $200 to $250 each in the USA at the moment. That is almost ten times the value of just a couple of years ago. This might put owning a Zeb way out of reach of the ordinary aquarist in Australia, but it will guarantee that the species will never go extinct!!!! What Greenies and concervationists have not yet realised is that, make it legal for private breeders to own rare animals, and put a $$$$ value on those animals (Live) and every effort, beyound what any government or conservation society can afford, will be activated to ensure those species survive!!!!! Why ??? because, they then become a valuable commodity and not just some obscure wild species no one will every see. I have never seen a Bilby!!! Who has ??? Make them legal pets and they will be on display at every show in Australia within no time. The same with Quolls and other native species in danger from introduced predators and pests. Gosh,,,,excuse my raving. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xinguinsis Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 Problem with that Alan is it seems your using arguably the most appealling species of catfish to make a blanket statement.How often do cichlids get lost to the hobby in Australia if there not appealling to the greater public ? Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wui39 Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 Problem with that Alan is it seems your using arguably the most appealling species of catfish to make a blanket statement.How often do cichlids get lost to the hobby in Australia if there not appealling to the greater public ? Regards Chris ← Especially the cheap and ugly ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots n all Posted June 4, 2006 Author Share Posted June 4, 2006 Err Alan, Add Australia to that list and l have only seen the price of the Zeb's go down in price here in Australia over the last say two years, from $800 to now $650 - $700, although size and numbers do count. l Dont think Bilbies come into quite the same picture, there is a breeding center for Bilbies now, 25 klms square in size, cat proof fences and the gates that make a barking dog sound as you get near them and also a 5000 hec release area that they are breding in also, Read on...... http://www.fauna.com.au/marsupials/bilby.php Yes l have seen Bilbies as have thousands of others, in fact they were sent to Melb. for their retirement from a Breeding program. The Zebs are completly different, they have very little to no enviroment to be released back into, as for breeding in captivity we are claiming more and more of these rare catfish as locally breed than ever before. this is the list l know of there may even be more.... and l am not counting single unrepeated spawns. L168 L134 L333 L260 L201 L046 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catfishLegacy Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 The Zebs are completly different, they have very little to no enviroment to be released back into Yes. The rio xingu is a tiny little place ...as for breeding in captivity we are claiming more and more of these rare catfish as locally breed than ever before. this is the list l know of there may even be more.... and l am not counting single unrepeated spawns. L168 L134 L333 L260 L201 L046 Not sure what you mean here mate? I haven't met anyone breeding Hypancistrus zebra because they want to release them into the wild and I haven't come across many "hobbyists" who want to breed rare catfish and share them around with other hobbyists. They want cash. I'm sure there are some people whos intentions are pure, eg breeding for the pure fun and acheivement...but not many people buy an $800 fish so they can share the fry with their mates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots n all Posted June 7, 2006 Author Share Posted June 7, 2006 no the "very little to no enviroment to be released back into" does not mean it is tiny nor has it disappeared over night, it has been damaged (gold mining chemicals) and to most reports they are planing to dam the rivers for hydro power, so they say. ? l cant see anywhere that l have said anyone was giving anything away or releasing them in to the wild, where did you get that idea from? maybe you could cut and paste that part for me too? The fact that we are breeding more and more of these fish in captivity means we are less relient on the wild population to support our addiction a great thing yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catfishLegacy Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Not having a go at you mate... My point is that if people were concerned about the status of these fish in the wild, endangered or not, would they have them in their tanks? Australia is one of the only places where we are forced to try and breed them: expensive/illegal to import etc. In other countries, if tank-bred specimens can't keep up with demand: Import some more! The aquarium trade has most likely never contributed to a fish becoming extinct, but the trade has NEVER had a responsible attitude towards such matters either. Telling ourselves we are conserving wild stocks of a species by breeding it in captivity is silly. While we dedicate years towards getting a *rare* species to breed, its been overfished or killed off by mining and other industrial pollution. We could have spoken up...but we were patting ourselves on the back for getting it to breed. * Keep in mind a lot of these species are only rare in Australia* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catfishLegacy Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 This is an portion of a web blog about lisencing fish collectors in South America: The problems associated with overharvest tend to affect a rather small proportion of the species, which tends to be due to limited reproduction due to habitat degradation, which coupled with increasing demand, continually raises the price to the point where such species are being in effect exterminated. A good comparison is the fisheries on the Rio Negro and the Rio Xingu. The Rio Negro habitat is being preserved and millions of neon and cardinal tetras are harvested each year, without damage to the ecosystem. The Rio Xingu, home to a variety of rare plecos, is slowly being destroyed by gold mining, which encourages a rape and pillage mentality, as the high priced fish are slowly dying out from siltation and pollution, which is limiting or eliminating reproduction, so the motto is to get as many as you can, while you can, because they will be gone soon. Whole thing can be found here: http://fins.actwin.com/nanf/month.9809/msg00035.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wui39 Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Perhaps the only way to prevent them going extinct forever is to make them extinct in the wild............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catfishLegacy Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Maybe true... The Rio xingu is not the only river that will recieve a dam, the Rio tocantins and araguaia will also recieve several dams after work is completed on the xingu dam in 2010. And theres not just one planned for the Rio xingu either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foai Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Maybe true... The Rio xingu is not the only river that will recieve a dam, the Rio tocantins and araguaia will also recieve several dams after work is completed on the xingu dam in 2010. And theres not just one planned for the Rio xingu either. ← How does damming the river affect the fish other than the usual industrial consequences of inserting a wall of cement? I don't think the zebra needs to go to the ocean to breed like a salmon. Couldn't it just sit tight in its little inlet and wait until the dam is built? I think the bigger problem is overfishing by local people seeking to fulfill the rapacious desires of the aquarium industry. As soon as the fish can be easily bred in captivity I imagine much of the desire and fascination will wane (along with the cost) - as with many other types of fish before it. Foai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuong Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 There's a chance the dams might disrupt the breeding cycle of fish who are triggered by dry and wet seasons. There won't be as much temperature fluctuation due to the volume of water in a dam versus a river, and flow will definitely be disrupted despite dams opening floodgates when over capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catfishLegacy Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 How does damming the river affect the fish other than the usual industrial consequences of inserting a wall of cement? I don't think the zebra needs to go to the ocean to breed like a salmon. Couldn't it just sit tight in its little inlet and wait until the dam is built? I think the bigger problem is overfishing by local people seeking to fulfill the rapacious desires of the aquarium industry. And the answer is... There's a chance the dams might disrupt the breeding cycle of fish who are triggered by dry and wet seasons. There won't be as much temperature fluctuation due to the volume of water in a dam versus a river, and flow will definitely be disrupted despite dams opening floodgates when over capacity. (exactly right Schmuck) This is also relevant... The problems associated with overharvest tend to affect a rather small proportion of the species, which tends to be due to limited reproduction due to habitat degradation, The dam on the Rio xingu will flood 400 square kilometers of forest, I'd say this would have a significant impact on the flow of the river, and at the very least distrupt the rivers seasonal flow/flood pattern. Anyone breeding Zebras will tell you about the amount of water current required for breeding, or even general husbandary. Of course also affected by this dam will be the Paquiçamba reserve and the native people (Juruna) living in the area. Because its not really just the dam on the Rio xingu, theres dams planned for rivers that flow into the xingu as well: Altamira (this one will flood 6,000 square km), Ipixuna, Kakraimoro and the Jarina. The "old" Hydroelectric plan for the Rio xingu was scrapped because of a huge amount of national and international protest, perhaps something can be done about these dams as well? As soon as the fish can be easily bred in captivity I imagine much of the desire and fascination will wane (along with the cost) - as with many other types of fish before it. I think the problem is Zebras (and several other Loricariidae), simply don't produce enough fry per spawn to keep up with the demand. There are breeders all over the world (especially Germany & the U.S.) producing relatively large amounts of these fish and they're still being illegally harvested and smuggled out of Brazil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catfishLegacy Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 maybe you could cut and paste that part for me too? Didn't you start the thread with something you cut and pasted from another forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots n all Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Gee that was a while coming Yes l did start the thread of with a cut and paste, nothing wrong with it as long as the point of Origin/Aurthor is clearly given full credit. l was asking you to cut and paste in response to your statement You said......... "....Not sure what you mean here mate? I haven't met anyone breeding Hypancistrus zebra because they want to release them into the wild.... " what made you think l said that? never mind that was two days ago lets go forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catfishLegacy Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I just meant captive breeding is NOT conservation. Keeping them alive for the hobby is great (I love the hobby ), but if the only river they're found in is destroyed, in what sense do they exist? As a cash cow for the trade? I'm going foward, these are discussion forums, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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