Apistogramma Co-Op

[reddstagg]

Hey,

i just thought it would be cool to kick off the brand new forum, trying to get a online

Co-op going.

Information and encouragement is great from fellow fish keepers, I see a lack of decent fish at my local stores and knowing many of you are wanting some good quality stock i thought if we assembled a group of people in each state, even a group of 10 from each state.

And talk a prodominate store in each state to hunt down some fish (and getting differnt bloodlines within that order so we dont end up with all related fish)

for the group in each state... it would be much easier then going in this as a single entity.

And if someone with-in the co-op managed to get some fry going, people within the group would be able to help rear and grow out the fish. Also if fish where refusing to breed, we would be able to trade males or females and the like.

I thought it was a great idea, others might not. However if your interested just leave your email here and state, and also feel free to discuss the idea and brainstorm.

Feel free to add me to msn to futher dicuss/encourage/flame

deano_hamer@hotmail.com Vic/Melbourne

Dean

[Melbourne_Bill]

Hi Dean

A great idea but has not worked too well in the past because of a lack of financial commitment and infighting.

I think that a concerted effort would be necessary - rather than on a state by state basis. We are unlikely to get more genetic variability either one way or the other because, as far as I know, there are two main Australian importers (AI and Bayfish) and also a limited number of overseas "exporters" who are licensed to export to Australia.

All Apistogramma species are allowable imports - however why do we not see more of them in the shops? Two reasons that importers do not bring them in - they are a fairly fragile fish and also there is limited demand in the hobby.

Furthermore the question of infighting. Say you order 10 pairs of Apistogramma x - you are more likely to receive 20 fish. Once these go through shipping etc etc you may end up with 12 fish - and say there are 3 males and 9 females (not totally unrealistic figures). So you have hobbyists fighting over who is entitled to the three pairs. The thing that should happen is that the shipment is assigned to one experienced hobbyist who undertakes to breed and distribute the species to other members of the syndicate. And NO fish appear on the open market until all syndicate members have acquired the fish. How likely do you think this is?

OK you still want a new species of Apistogramma to be imported into Australia? Ask your LFS to ask the importer to import that species and hand over a non-refundable deposit of $1500 - $2000. Within 6 months you will be the proud owner of that part of the shipment that has survived.

I tried to persuade another "group" who I was associated with to bring in some new species using this method. However too many people either want guarantees or want the fish cheaply etc etc. Arghhhhh

I am all for bringing new stock into Australia and am more than happy to actively participate in any proposal that gets off the ground. However we need a group of people (probably at least 5) to fund the importation.

What about hobby groups (eg VCS, NSWCS) funding the importation of a new species say twice a year? Of course, this would not really help the Apistogramma and Pelvicachromis keepers who are in the minority

Bill_Phillips@ozemail.com.au

Melbourne_Bill

[Th0mas]

Totally agree with you Bill,

In the past there has been several occassions where importers has brought in new species of apistogramma. But due to the lack of demand and high loss ratio, the importers are no longer interested in bringing in these beautiful fish.

It is very difficult to achieve a balance of cost reduction while getting new species into the country. Recently I've asked an importer about the possibility of getting some apistogramma through their quarantine. After checking with their exporter (from South America - yes it's shipped from there through a licensed exporter into Australia) and they would only do this with a shipment minimum hundreds of the same fish. This lead to an extreme cost for one or a few indivudual just for the sake of getting one species into the country.

Unless the demand increase in the market, it would be almost impossible for just a few of us minorities to try and get some of these fish back into the country.

Currently Bayfish has some "rarer" apistogramma in stock, does anyone know whether they're imported or locally bred?

Thomas.

[Melbourne_Bill]

Thomas

Hi

I stand to be corrected but I heard several months ago that Bayfish no longer import Apistogramma because of the high loss ratio.

I have also asked a couple of smaller importers but they are generally not willing to touch Apistogramma.

Bill

[Th0mas]

Bill,

What you've heard is exactly what I've heard as well - Bay isn't interested in importing apistogramma. I would assume the usual cacautoides and agassizi are locally supplied. However this time they have some borelli and pandurini (panduro) which are not usually kept/bred. So I'm just trying my luck and asking around to see if anyone has inside information about these species.

I remember reading some post or email or heard from somewhere in the past on the main cause for their huge losses during quarantine is the environment they use for quarantine. Aparently they uses one universal environment to process all quarantine items regardless of their place of origin (not sure if this is 100% true though). Therefore the cost per fish survived the process will never be cheap.

Thomas.

[Melbourne_Bill]

Thomas

Why not give Bay a call and ask them about the Apistogramma - they are generally quite happy to talk to hobbyists.

I did some part time work (as a "pathologist consultant") at a Melbourne wholesaler for a while (this particular wholesaler has left the aquarium scene) and conditions then were horrible - same pH, hardness etc for every type of fish. Almost enough to put one off the hobby completely.

There is no suggestion that the current wholesalers do not follow best fish keeping practices.

Bill

[Daniel]

Bill & others,

For your info, AI currently have Apistogramma gibbiceps (wild caught) 3cm available. They also have Apist. caetei 'Belem' (wild caught).

I thought you said they wernt getting any wild caught Apistos in anymore Bill ?

[Melbourne_Bill]

Daniel

I am fairly certain that my comments related to Bayfish but my apologies if I said otherwise

Bill

[Michael]

Yeah AI has had a few Inported apisto latey...also daniel i not think it is a good idea posting a wholesalers price..on the net

[Melbourne_Bill]

I agree that it is not a good idea posting wholesaler prices on the net.

AI wholesaler price list seems to be common knowledge around Sydney

[Daniel]

My apologies, I have now 'edited'

[Michael]

NP's Daniel.. hey Bill what apisto are you keeping at the momment..?

Cheers

Michael

[reddstagg]

Get help Bill,

Yeah I guess there would be alot of infighting after loss rates, Ill have to go scouring the net after this week to see if theres any breeders somewhere in australia.

You really have a vast knowledge bill, its great to have someone whose alot of help in the forums.

I sorta had an idea of the dwarf co-op to be a small pocket of dwarf keepers that just chatted on the net and kept up to date with each others tanks, and also helped others with suggestions about keeping, then with breeding we could sell within the co-op so that we could get a good collection of dwarfs out there into the main stream aquariums.

I just find its sad to think must of the current ones are all related to one another, and they are all so genetically limited, and causing so many deformitie problems. And due to which, interest is being lost in such a fine fish that has so much more portential then we see in our LFS.

should we expect this for all fish that arnt establish in the aquarium main stream? or every fragile fish? (they managed to get discus main stream)

Doesnt have to be a new species tho, we could just ask for some decent Cacatudios.

The rules of supply and demand are quite important, but if we start making noise about demand they will have take notice and hopefully supply.

Cheers guys

Dean

[Alan]

Barry Woods and myself tried just this idea some 12 years ago. Admittedly we didn't have the bennifits of the www, the internet or forums then, but there were a lot of active club members interested in Dwarfs.

After a lot of phone calls and faxes we got to a minimum order of 5 boxes of fish, two species per box and an up front payment of US$2,800. Then we had quarantine accomodation arranged( but to be paid for), import duty on invoice value ( in those days) Quantine fees, Fisheries inspection fees, and then take a ball park punt of possible losses and survival rates to get to an in tank cost of a pair of fish. There was heaps of interest, but appart from Barry and myself, guess how many were prepared to put cash up front on the gamble ??

Yep. Ya right !!!

Alan

[Bijengum]

I am interested in obtaining some Apistogramma's. Who breeds them in Sydney or ACT, which species. If you could email me some pics and info it would be appreciated.

[DanceswithDingoes]

I'd like to find out which SOB is importing these "steelblues" into OZ.....not happy Jan

[Michael]

Jason what are steelblues i have never seen them..?

[Daniel]

Steel blues are on the AI list

[DanceswithDingoes]

Mick see my post on hybrids in the general section.....AI hey, typical

[Th0mas]

Apparently there's a genuine species called sp. blue head, is everyone certain this is the fish coming out of AI recently?

The picture from the other thread is definitely sold as a "neon head" and has been around for many years. When I first stumble on it, Rod Wallace told me it's a new species and he got them from Qld (aka Bay). That was about 5 years ago.

It would be good to track down whether the recent shipment of "neon head" were from AI and whether it was sold under the name of sp. blue head. If this is the case, where they got the fish from (Germany, Asia, local, etc).

Thomas.