Ged Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 </DIV><H1>Filter selection?</H1><DIV id=Ptextbox>« </a></DIV><DIV id=Qtextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi there ppl, <br> <br> im looking at setting a 4footer very soon, but having some trouble deciding on the type of filtration to use for it? UGF with power heads, cannister? Trickle sump ...etc Would some one please give me some tips on their previuos experience and tell me why some would prefer UGF over the cannister and Trickle and vice versa? <br> Thanks guys, appreciate it! <br> <br> Johnno </P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: chorrylan</STRONG><BR><BR>everyone seems to have their own preferences in regard to filtration, the only agreed theme being that you can never get too much of it (hmmm unless your tank is in your house and you object to that sleeping-next-to-a-waterfall kinda atmosphere) <br> <br> I would probably opt for a canister (plus some surface-skimming/mechanical filtration) and wouldn't even consider the UGF. If it's a 4x2x2 or larger and you can/plan-to plumb other tanks in I might consider a trickle system. <br> <br> UGF <br> - almost impossible to maintain <br> - isn't particularly (at all?) effective <br> - will suffer from gravel digging by your fish. <br> <br> trickle filter <br> - generally a bit big, noisy and cumbersome for anything smaller than a 4x2x2 or a rack. <br> -can be relatively cheap if you're filtering a larger tank or mutiple tanks (if you put it together yourself... buying one from a LFS is not cheap) <br> - very effective bilogical filtration and can cope with significant variations in fish load <br> - a bit tricky to get the water from the tank to your filter if you already have the tank and it's not drilled... you either have to get someone to to drill it (risky and costs around $60... if you can find someone with a portable glass drill) or use a siphon setup which is expensive unless you make your own. <br> <br> Canister <br> - smaller, quieter and easier to manage than trickle filters <br> - effective biological filtration but you probably need something else for mechanical filtration. <br> - will probably end up more expensive than a trickle filter by the time you add mechanical filtration. <br> - seem to "crash" a bit more drastically and recover more slowly than a trickle system if you switch one off and forget to switch it back on *embarrassed grimace* or you get a power outage of some sort. <br> <br> ps: woops I just noticed the word "experienced" in the subject.... I should probably delete this post <br> Cheers, <br> Laurie </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Hmm that was pretty informative Laurie, but im still left feeling a bit confused!! How about attatching a Bio Max filtered sponge onto the UGF pipes and running powerheads off that? As you can gather im pretty new at the fish scene, so im not really familiar when you say, "surface-skimming/mechanical filtration". would you be able to elaborate on that please? So if i opt for a cannister what else would i need? the tanks size is 48"x18"x18", ive looked at the Eheim 2217, but was advised by some that its not powerful enough and others say that is fine. Any recommendations at all? <br> <br> <br> thanks <br> <br> Johnno <br> </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: ducksta</STRONG><BR><BR>It depends on the fish you intend to keep... If you are posting here I assume cichlids but this may not be the case. Either way - what kind of cichlids? Large/small one or multiple fish? <br> <br> In addition to a cannister you could try a hang on back (HOB) filter. They are very effective filters in my opinion. </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: AndrewP</STRONG><BR><BR>Under gravel filters are crap for cichlids and IMO crap period, keep well clear of them, you need to have the gravel deep and undisturbed for the UG to work properly, cichlids continuously dig making the UG totally inaffective and deep gravel attracts too much waste thus causing very high nitrate levels over time for which nothing can be done. <br> <br> For a standard 4 footer the best combo by far is a cannister with the support of a hangon power filter. For example I have always used eheim cannister filters with aquaclear hangons, this is an excellent way to filter the tank and you can keep your gravel to a nice thin layer of around an inch (therefore not attracting much waste). <br> <br> You dont need to be confused any more, stay away from UG's and use the combo I mentioned. You dont have to use an eheim as they are expensive but another cheaper type of cannister would be fine with an aquaclear or penguin bio wheel. <br> <br> <br> If you have any more questions you can email me or put up another reply here. <br> <br> Regards AndrewP </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Arj</STRONG><BR><BR>I have to agree. i started with ug filters and they are crap. they keep the water clear but when you need to clean them..well..thats another story. i don't have have any u/g filters anymore and i never will. <br> <br> why not use the ice cream tub & coke bottle fitler for fry tanks? even corner filters. other than that, for bigger tanks, use a cannister and internal power or HOB filters. I have a trickle filter for my 6x2x2. you can have a look at that on my website as to how i set it up. <br> <br> for cannister filters, i would get the eheim. i have fluval 304 & 404 and eventhough they have not given me any trouble (touch wood) i would not buy them anymore. IMO there is a flaw in the design where there is or seems to be air trapped near the impellar continuously and everytime you shake the cannister, air bubbles come out. anyway most others seem to have lots of trouble with them. <br> <br> <br> <br> Arj <br> </DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Hey thanks for that advise, <br> <br> i'll look into those hangon power filters and the cannister. If im using a 48x18x18 how many times do i need to cycle the total volume through the cannister?What i mean is, the Eheim 2217 says its sufficient for tanks up to 600Ls. So it that good enough for a 260L tank? Or what about the Eheim ecco 2235, <br> Canister filter 600lph?? If i get a cannister that if sufficient for my tank, how powerful does the internal power filter have to be? I appreciate the help as i dont wana get ripped when buying something, maybe get conned into buying something i dont really need. Or look like a dill asking stupid questions. <br> <br> thanks Andrew. <br> <br> Johnno <br> <br> PS im keeping 2 oscars, Pleco, Knife, 3 salmotails. <br> <br> </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>For a 4x2x2 or 4x18s, dont use UG filters. It will limit the type of tank and fish you can have. e.g. Plants will not grow as well in those tanks (except for hardy var. eg. anubias, swords, Java fern etc). It is true that a fair bit of mulm will accumulate beneath the UG plates, but the main concern is the 'long term' maintenance of the tanks. After a period of time (usually >12mths, depending of stocking levels etc), you may find that the water may not be as clear or that the fish may not appear as healthy. The gravel will tend to become more compacted as time goes by. This will restrict the water flow through the gravel, hence limit the effectiveness to hold biological bacterial to break down ammonia etc. UG is effective in situations where you will regularly vacumm the substrate (right to the UG plates). This will prevent the 'packing' behaviour of the gravel. <br> <br> Cannister filters are excellent alternatives to UG. If properly maintained, they generally last for many years and can provide both biological and mechanical filtration (depending on media combinations). They will also provide water movement in the tank. The drawbacks of cannisters is maintenance. If you neglect cleaning the filters on a regular basis (i.e. minimum monthly), you may find that the waterflow will reduce substantially. I have used cannister filters (fluval 404 and eheim on my 6x2x2 with oscars and severums) and found them to be very good. <br> <br> Having said all that, I would recommend trickle filters. By simply having the tank maker drill a hole in the upper corner of the tank, you can easily have a trickle filter system. The trickle filter can be as simple as a bucket (with lids) with water from the tank coming in from the top through various filter media (e.g. filter mat, ceramic rings/bioballs) and a pump at the bottom of the bucket to return the water to the tank. Alternatively, a small 2 footer can be used instead of the bucket. I used those tupperware containers (3 of them) tiered in a 2 foot tank underneath my 4 footer. The first layer is simply filter mats. The holes at the bottom of the container lets water pass down to the next container and so on. The main advantage with this system is maintenance. By regularly (weekly) removing/cleaning the first filter layer (e.g. filter mat) you can reduce the nitrate levels significantly. In a nutshell, you are removing materials that will eventually be broken down by bacteria into nitrite/nitrate. <br> <br> Well, that is my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps... <br> <br> </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>oh yeah, one more thing, should you ever decide to switch the tank into marine *gasp*shock* having a trickle filter there already makes things a lot easier. </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Damn this forum is helpful! You guys are great hehe! However b3dlam, there is also something i would like to know with the Trickle Filter option. Once the plumbing has all been set up, the drilled hole, pvc piping, filtering through the various mediums, how powerful should the water pump be? I mean how do you determine the flow rate of the water flowing down through the pipes in order to have the corresct power pushing the water back up? <br> <br> Johnno <br> </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Beagly</STRONG><BR><BR>G'day <br> <br> Dunno about the experienced bit. But for my 2 cents worth. <br> <br> If you are a beginner I would choose a Cannister Filter. Eheim 2217 (Great filter, a little bit $$ but much less hassles). The use of a bio wheel may also be of benefit. (?) Depending on what you want to put into the tank. <br> <br> If you are experienced then maybe go for a Trickle Filter. These do the best job of filtering, however they can be noisy and you do have to keep topping the tank up, weekly. <br> <br> Oops I almost forgot the UGF. Oh well. <br> I am not a fan of these things. Ever had a major Blackout with one of these? When you do and all of your fish die, you will see why I hate these things. (With a cannister you simply wash it out and then no dead fish.) <br> <br> By the way don't skimp, put an airstone in the tank as well. This will also help if a blackout hits. <br> <br> Hope this helps <br> <br> CYA Beagly... <p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>cool that sounds good! I think i might try the trickle system and see how that goes. Can some one please tell me with the DIY bucket system...what is the lid spray bar and how does this work? If the water is to be running from the tank down into the bucket, how does the sprinkler get set it off and turn it??? Once i have made this bucket filter i need to place it in a large container of some sort right? and as the water flows in the pump pushes it back up into the tank? Well how do i choose the correct pump in terms of litres/hour to accomodate the water over flowing into the bucket? <br> <br> Johnno <br> <br> much appreciated guys </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>With the trickle filter I made myself, I used a standard 2 footer. My reasoning was that if I ever decide to remove the trickle filter, the sump can be used for other things (fry, plants etc). With the bucket method, its a little bit more tricky. Some people use to fill half the bucket with bioballs and a round container to hold the filter mat. The round container is drilled at the bottom with many tiny holes. With the filter matt in it, you will find that a spray bar is totally unnecessary. The water will drip from the holes (just try to make the container as level as possible). You can put a pump at the bottom of the bucket, just make sure that the impeller is not totally exposed (i.e. use the pump cover/guard) so that none of the bioballs will be lodged into the intake. There is no need to drill any holes in the bucket itself, just the lid. I would use a pump that is rated 3xVolume of your tank per hour). It is true that the pump output will be less because it has to pump water up from the sump, but a trickle filter is much much more efficient than that of a submersed filter. <insert theory of surface area of media and oxygen here>. <br> Added benefits also include increased oxygen in the water, making air pump unnecessary. People's reservations on using a diy trickle system is totally understandable. As with all things, it gets better with experience and some research. The costs of the system is surprisingly cheap: <br> 1. 2 foot tank (2nd hand $10) or bucket (used by bakers to hold flour - free). <br> 2. Containers ($5-10) <br> 3. Filter mats ($10-15) <br> 4. pump $80-100 <br> 5. hoses and fittings from hardware store $15-20. <br> 6. Bioballs ($20) <br> 7. Satisfaction of knowing you did it yourself (priceless...) <br> For everything else, there are always cannister filters. <br> <br> It is possible to do this cheaply. But by far the easiest way to filter a tank is using cannister filters and those hang on back type filters as mentioned by the posts above. <br> <br> Let us know how you go!! <br> <br> </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: nornicle</STRONG><BR><BR>I've never used a trickle filter because I've never kept a tank bigger than a 4X2X2. A 4X18X18 with a trickle filter is sort of overkill. <br> <br> They are cheaper and much more effective than canister filters if done correctly. <br> <br> However, they require a little more technical savvy than I reckon a beginner should have to deal with. <br> <br> So I would recommend for a standard 4ft an Eheim 2215 or 2217. The canister will do everything you need if you fill it with the right media. Personally I would use just a filter pad and then fill the rest with biological media like pumice (or *Seachem Matrix*). <br> <br> Oscars tend to be very messy fish and need a lot of filtration. I would go with a 2217 and you should have no worries. <br> <br> regards <br> <br> Richard <br> <br> </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Hmm so it seems that the Eheim 2217 has the vote...and also the trickle system if i had more experience. Well thanks guys i'll keep you posted on the what happens with the tank and hopefully get some pics up. im in the process of building the cabinet and won't be getting the tank and setup till its complete. I might get he cannister and see if its sufficient, if not i'll add the internal power filter...I really wouldnt mind trying out the trickle system, not bc its a cheaper alternative, but to acutally see if i can make the thing work properly. Have you guys heard of the Eheim ecco 2235?? This one is roughly the same price as the 2217 and was wondering if anyone had used these before, whether there are advantages over the 2217. Once again guys, thanks for the help, been very helpful. <br> <br> Johnno </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: az</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi Johnno <br> <br> Personally in a 4' stand alone I would use a hang on such as aquaclear 300 and a large corner filter, all up cost $88 bucks. <br> <br> For the eheim 2217 check trans in Canley Vale, last time I bought one for $230. <br> <br> Cheers <br> <br> Andreas </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Baz</STRONG><BR><BR>I agree with other opinions that a trickle filter might be overkill on a tank of this size. My preferences would be an eheim canister if u can afford it, a fluval cannister if u cannot afford the eheim, and then i'd go for aquaclears if they are both out of your price range. <br> the downside with aquaclears is you might need 2 on a tank that size, but the upside is they are real easy to clean and maintain. <br> The recommended size is to get a filter (or a combination of filters) that will turn over the tank volume 4 times an hour. <br> However I normally aim for 7-8 times, which means a cleaner tank and less maintenence. This would be especially important with oscars, which are real pigs and seem to enjoy spitting food all over the place. <br> BTW regular syphoning over your substrate is also important with oscars. They eat a LOT which means they also crap a lot too. In a few weeks the bottom of the tank can resemble the elephant enclosure at the zoo, with huge turd piles all over the place <br> <br> </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Thank Az but im actually in melbourne! the price isnt too much of an issue, i can get the filters for decent prices, a little lower than that though. My friends runing a slightlt smaller tank 48x14x18 with a Fluval, i cant remember the number could be the 304 and it doesnt seem to be ver strong with the suction and the return. Thats why i was asking about the number of cycles. <br> <br> So Baz, the 2217 is sufficient to the do the job right? but it says for tanks up to 600l. does really say the number of lph. <br> <br> thanks </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>As I mentioned in my earlier post, a cannister/hob type filter is by far the easiest way to go. You really can't go too much wrong with these types of filters. Plug and Play aye??!? <br> However, a trickle filter is really not that difficult to do (IMHO) but i guess it all depends on how technical and experimental you want to go with your tank. Seeing that you are just starting out, I concede that a trickle filter is adding more complexity to an already complex topic. <br> I still believe that people should *try* it out at least once.... Like me, i think people will be very surprised as to how easy it was to do and the ease of maintenance (compared to cannisters) and the actual results. <br> <br> Cheers, <br> <br> ps. I do apologise if my posts/comments were confusing or detracted you from fishkeeping. It was not intended. <br> </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>I think i will stick with the cannister and internal powerfilter and while thats running the 4', i'll be experimenting with the bucket system! would some please tell about the pump if i use the trickle system? Everyone has been really great, however i wanted to ask yous about the pump at the bottom. The rate at which the water falls into the bucket isnt really know right? so how do you find the sufficient pump? ie what is the pump is to strong and the water isnt flowing down fast enough..etc.?? </P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>A trickle filter is much more efficient than a submersed type filter. As such, the general rule for tank turnover is not really applicable (this is one of the reasons why ppl say it adds complexity etc). I would personally use a pump that is rated to filter 3 x tank volume per hour. e.g. if the tank has 200 litres of water, I would use a 600-700Lph pump. You can go a bit higher but it isnt really necessary as the capacity of trickle filters are so much more... <br> With regards to the "..pump is to strong and the water isnt flowing down fast enough.." question, the hose from the tank to the bucket should be bigger than the one from the pump back to the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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