transistor Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Hi guys i returned home from work yesterday to find 3 dead fish... two 6 cm frontosa and a 5cm electric yellow. Now i had done a water change ( well not so much a water change just a top up from evaporation)a day or two before about 5-10% in a 6*2*2. i just used tap water and was going to plop in some water conditioner until i realised i had run out. i looked at the temp and it only dropped about 1 degree and returned to its original temp in an hour or so. i assume this unconditioned water was the reason for their deaths? how do you guys do water changes in large tanks? how often and how much? Any help appreciated Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkmuncan Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 temp shouldnt be an issue, and NSW water is generally pretty good. I have a 5 x 2 x 2 and do the following weekly 1. Drain 30-40% of water 2. Add conditioner for full 500L 3. Top up tank straight from hose been doing this for 5 months with no casualties at all and no more of a fluctuation in temps than maybe 1-2° i reckon the fish like the slight change in temp, as tank is usually @ 26.5° and i find my smaller fish love swimming in the outflow of the hose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danpri Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Was there a big Ph difference from your tank to the tapwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I was always under the impression that water needs to be treated before going into the tank, Not during or after. Correct me if im wrong but I thought filling straight from the tap would "overdose" the already cycled tank water and kill bacteria from the chloramine I just fill up a large storage tub with tap water, Add ager,swirl and let it sit for abit I always though this was the right way to do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I do mine straight from the tap, just like darkmuncan. I dose the full tank volume with prime or similar as the tank is filling. Of course not everyone likes doing it this way, some prefer to age water in a drum (after adding the same prime) and then add it. I've been doing it my way for more than a decade and it still works for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignose Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Straight from a tap with prime. No probs. One year for me and the fish love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZULU Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 No conditioner = dead fish due to the Chloramynes . I do changes straight from the tap on warmer days with no problem and add prime to the tank at the same time. Regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWs Fish Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 It depends on what type of fish your doing the water changes for. Some can take straight from the tap others cannot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus13 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Sydney water are not only double and triple dosing with Flouride, Chlorine & Chloromine, they are adding Copper to remove algael spores. i.e. EXTREMELY DEADLY TO ANY FISH WITHOUT THE USE OF A GOOD QUALITY DECHLOR AGENT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTR73 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 A good point by Teflon - I don't fill my tanks direct from the tap as chlromides could possiblyy kill the beneficial bacteria before neutrilzer does its job. Sure the fish could probably hack a bit of chlorine momentarily, but I've read chlrorine kills bacteria instantly if it reaches it. I can see how guys with bigger tanks could get away with it as greater volume of cycled water in there I guess, but probably a risk if a smaller tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus13 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 It must also be remembered that the author of this thread is based in Sydneys North West (close to the main treatment facility at Prospect). Being that Sydney water is down to a true level of 32% (43% combined with fringe holding facilities) chemicals are being added in huge amounts to make the water safe for us. As for what it will do to your fish, try working at a LFS and hearing daily of 10's if not 100's of fish dying for no reason other than a recent water change (with insufficient or no additives used). For those that dont use chemicals on there water in the Sydney basin, I would seriously reconsider, or maybe give Sydney water a call and ask to speak to one of there specialists, you will be surprised at what gets added to the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 A good point by Teflon - I don't fill my tanks direct from the tap as chlromides could possiblyy kill the beneficial bacteria before neutrilzer does its job. Sure the fish could probably hack a bit of chlorine momentarily, but I've read chlrorine kills bacteria instantly if it reaches it. I can see how guys with bigger tanks could get away with it as greater volume of cycled water in there I guess, but probably a risk if a smaller tank. ← Thats what i thought, People are always saying you should wash your filter media etc in tank water but i think it kind of contradicts doing so if you fill your tank straight from a tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardukar Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I have a 3fter and have been doing 20% water changes straight from the tap, then add some treatment stuff afterwards; and i have never ever had a problem with fish dying on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Thats what i thought, People are always saying you should wash your filter media etc in tank water but i think it kind of contradicts doing so if you fill your tank straight from a tap ← The washing of filter media in tank water is to avoid you blasting all the good bacteria from the media when washing it with fresh water. Tank water still contains the bacteria to a degree, so you are able to remove the gunk without removing all of the bacteria. Removing all the bacteria from your filter at once can cause a spike in your tank because that's where the majority of your bacteria lives Filling your tank from the hose is a different issue. The risk here is Chlorine and Chloramine, which are both deadly to fish. Chlorine will disappear from the water within minutes, but Chloramine will stay around for a long time. Some folk prefer to age their water in drums, which allows the Chlorine to find its way out, but they still have to treat the water with a Chloramine killer anyway. The other advantage with using drums is you can pre-heat the water before you add it to the tank. When filling tanks from the hose it is important to use enough Prime to treat the whole tank volume. Just drop the correct amount in as the tank fills. Only putting enough in to treat the amount of water being added is not as safe. The other way to do this if you only have a small tank or 2 is to use a bucket. Fill a bucket, treat it, and dump it in the tank. It is fine to treat only the water being added here because you have the new water held as a captive audience Use which ever system you want, but it's important to understand the risks involved and the steps taken to avoid these risks. Personally I dont have the room (or undersanding wife ) to have big drums of water stored here, and I don't want to pay the running costs of more heaters and air pumps to maintain these drums. I also find that the cold water coming into the tank on water change day seems to encourage spawning in my fish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parrdog Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I only have one tank so I can afford (money, space and time)) to have a drum to store water for water changes that is aerated, heated, salted and buffered. I add Prime to the drum about half an hour before I do a water change. I can understand that if you had multiple tanks, storing water in drums would be difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transistor Posted September 3, 2005 Author Share Posted September 3, 2005 thanks for the quick response guys! Will be taking all your info into consideration on my next h2o change. Thanks again Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transistor Posted September 4, 2005 Author Share Posted September 4, 2005 The count continues... three more yesterday and at least three today have dropped off. Have also noticed lately that the bath water has been leaving a brown ring all around the tub. dont know how or why but could be due to the additives markus13 is refering to. also it seems my alto compressiceps are getting the worst with i tihnk only 3 out of 13 still alive the other fish seem to be stronger as the fronnies and saulosi are mostly ok keeping my fingers crossed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTR73 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 You need to get your water tested. Maybe you have killed off some of your tank's bacteria colonies somehow, and it is re-cycling itself again - you may have an ammonia spike??? Or there's some type of contaminent getting in. If you don't have the test kits, take a sample of water down to your local LFS and they should be able to test it all for you - ammonia, GH, PH, copper, aluminium, the works (could also be a PH problem?). At least then you'll know positively where you're at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeW Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Hi Guys - I do all mine straight from the tap also. I've been doing it that way for years and have no issues. I always use water ager - I've found that the quantity of chlorine (and the smell) are quite variable.... I suspect you were unlucky and added water which had qay too much chlorine and chloramine. This not only burns the fish but can knock the biofilter around (read: more ammonia spikes). Here's my quick fix: 1. Dose the tank with a 2x dose of prime. 2. Drop feeding completely. Resume in four days - then every second day until the problem resolves itself. 3. Buy an ammonia/nitrite kit. 4. When you've got no ammonia or nitrite return your feeding to normal. HTH - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchy Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 ummm sorry for butting in Transistor... But is it illegal to add warm tap water? (ie some from the hot water supply) It seems a few people here use only cold water or maybe i'm just misinterpreting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 I think a hot water system has more potential to pass on copper & the like into the water or something than the regular cold water pipes - no scientific ideas behind this, just something I heard. I personally use the hose from outside to siphon the used water onto the lawn, then use this same hose to refill with the tank dosed for it's full capacity - no hot water taps outside to attempt to match the water temp, it only drops about 3deg anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transistor Posted September 6, 2005 Author Share Posted September 6, 2005 Hi guys thanks for everyones help Bought test kit and prime today. added 1 dose of prime then tested. test results PH - 6.0 - 6.4 Nitrite - 0 Nitrate - 0 - 0.25 ppm Ammonia - 160+ ppm..... aaaaaahhhhh! Added extra dose of prime. Total losses so far: 2 frontosa 11 alto compressiceps 1 electric yellow 1 saulosi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 holy crap!! could you get the PH more off too? don't rush to buffer it up cause ammonia's toxicity goes up with PH!! does prime lock ammonia or destroy it? you're best bet is to do what Dave suggested... 1. Dose the tank with a 2x dose of prime. 2. Drop feeding completely. Resume in four days - then every second day until the problem resolves itself. 3. Buy an ammonia/nitrite kit. 4. When you've got no ammonia or nitrite return your feeding to normal. ← Maybe try the bacteria in a bottle products (Cycle, Stress Zyme etc) or get some filter squeezings from extablished tanks - preferably a blackwater tank with that PH perhaps once this is sorted, then look at buffering cause that PH is way wrong for those fish - but whilst there is ammonia in there it is probably the only thing saving them so dont do it till you get 0 ammonia!! you may need to re-dose the prime daily - hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeW Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 If you have a second tank - wash one of the filter sponges loosely into the problem tank. The added bacteria will help to degrade the ammonia. The prime you've added (I'd recommend adding a third dose to the whole tank!) will bind the ammonia into a harmless form BUT it will still register on your test as "ammonia" so beware of this. Stop feeding immediately. Do nothing about the pH *yet* - Ash is right in this, raising the pH will kill your fish even more quickly. If your pH was were it should be (ie: 8.0 ish) all your fish would be dead. Are you using buffers or a buffering substrate? (I assume the former!). You can also do frequent, small (2x daily 2-5%) water changes. Dont feed the fish at all during this time. Dose the new water being added at 2x prime dosage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattzilla Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 i keep discus so i always treat and age my water prior to adding to my tank i age for eat least 24 hours, heavily airate, heat and add Water Ager ACN (double dose cause of the crappy sydney water at the moment) i have never had any problems with this method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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