hybrid

[southcoastbrad]

Hi everyone, im just new here and I just wanted to ask a question, I have a jack dempsey and a jaguar cichlid who have decided to breed, there are about 200 fry that hatched 3 days ago, what do I do? Ive been told that hybrids are frowned apon so do I let the other fish enjoy them as fish food or do I put them into another tank and let them grow????????

[Link2Hell]

Hi Brad

welcome to ACE forums

hybrids are a personal call but ........................

you have asked for opinions so my input is that I would

feed them off or leave them in the tank and let them be

predated on

I'm not a fan of hybrids and believe that they are a threat

to the limited genetic material we have

there are plenty that only see the other side and feel that

Flowerhorns and any other genetical modified fish are the

way of the hobby

being they are Dempsey x Jag I don't think they will have

the desired traits for Flowerhorn afficienados

[LithoMan]

Fish food

[Paul_S]

Feeders.

[southcoastbrad]

No worries, done, extra protein for the other cichlids. Thank you for your replies.

[gin0]

Hey Shelldweller - just signed up to this forum, was pretty dissapointed to see some of the other members comments about killing off hybrid eggs. I don't understand why hybrids are frowned upon? Jack Dempsey cross Jaguar to me would of been a really cool fish, did you keep any of the fry to grow out? If so, could you please post a pic?

One of the most popular fish today are flowerhorns which is a hybrid. I even seen on youtube the other day a Texas cross Jaguar and it looked awesome, with good personality (very owner responsive)

I know this topic is a couple weeks old now but thought I would throw my opinion in.

[Azedenkae]

Hey Shelldweller - just signed up to this forum, was pretty dissapointed to see some of the other members comments about killing off hybrid eggs. I don't understand why hybrids are frowned upon? Jack Dempsey cross Jaguar to me would of been a really cool fish, did you keep any of the fry to grow out? If so, could you please post a pic?

One of the most popular fish today are flowerhorns which is a hybrid. I even seen on youtube the other day a Texas cross Jaguar and it looked awesome, with good personality (very owner responsive)

I know this topic is a couple weeks old now but thought I would throw my opinion in.

The common reasons given are:

-It's unethical. Although that's in the eye of the beholder. What is more or less ethical? I would say, if we have to compare, that inbreeding fish is more unethical. After all, in the dog world that's how we get all these grossly diseased purebreds, which costs owners hundreds if not thousands to treat. But that's the only way to keep a fish species pure, I guess. Still.

-Mislabeling. People get a hybrid, not know/remember what it is, then pass them on. Can cause huge problems. Then again, not too different from purebreds. Man, the amount of times people conplained about Firemouths killing everything, and then finding out they have PINK Firemouths. Sad. I mean yeah, labeling is important regardless, but I guess with hybrids it's much harder.

-Deformities/drabness are more common. After all, they are hybrids, and you never know what you get. I guess that extends to purebreds too (especially inbreds), but eh. Some hybrids are really beautiful though! And have crazy patterns and colors and stuff. But yeah, some look sad. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder though, so this will be very subjective. I mean, some people love Blood Parrots and think they are beautiful, but they have a deformed mouth. I would never keep one. Well I would never keep an EBJD either, their weak bodies and defectice reproductive system puts me off.

-Purebreds have enough variation already. I mean I guess there's nothing wrong with wanting MORE, so that's why some people hybridize fish or selectively breed fish to obtain offsprings with better colors or patterns or whatever.

*Shrugs* To each their own I guess.

[gin0]

Inbreeding anything is just plain wrong. But cross breeding to me is interesting and dont understand why it is so frowned upon, why not try different things to create something unique like the flowerhorn. Like you said each to thier own but you selling me one of your hybrid's I dont see how that would affect the fish world.

Shame you didn’t keep just a few to see how they would turn out, I’m sure I’m not the only one that would of been curious.

Thanks for your time.

[Buccal]

gin0, cross breeding is extremely bad to do as offspring can turn out almost looking like its pure counterparts.

These fish are easily incorrectly identified (especially when young and also females).

If these hybrids are selected to breed with pure strains by accident,,,,, serious, serious, serious, serious and a hundred million times more serious's,,,,, disaster to the purity of the species we love today and have so many choices of.

Hybrids have their place, and are fine as long as this is done professionally and creates a identifiable new hybrid specie.

Inbreeding as you put it,,, is incorrect terminology to use in the fish bussiness,,, unless offspring and offspring or parents and offspring breed breed together as their own choice,,,, as this is not in any way managed by the breeder or aquarist.

A more correct term is line breeding as offsprings are selected to be put back together to breed and occasionally offspring back to parent.

A few valuable reasons for line breeding:

Only individuals of possession being a option to reproduce,, and unable to find else where.

Also is continuation of desired traits in fish as the required genetics only exist in the one bloodline,,,, for example, extra color, long fins, large bodies, small bodies, temperament and the list goes on.

Line breeding / inbreeding does not cause deformity as a lot of people think,,,, it only increases chances of deformity.

But once deformity exists,,, it continues repetitively breeding same bloodlines.

Each group of genes responsible for each make up is called a allele. Example,, one group of genes will make up fins.

When the same bloodline has the same fault in a allele the two faults meet up and create a deformity.

Note: there a number of different ways a deformity occurs also.

Using a individual from a alternate bloodline will usually cancel out the fault as the good/healthy gene will take over.

But sometimes deformities can be a dominant trait.

Things are a lot more complicated than just this,,, but this is just a rough gauge.

[Azedenkae]

gin0, cross breeding is extremely bad to do as offspring can turn out almost looking like its pure counterparts.

These fish are easily incorrectly identified (especially when young and also females).

If these hybrids are selected to breed with pure strains by accident,,,,, serious, serious, serious, serious and a hundred million times more serious's,,,,, disaster to the purity of the species we love today and have so many choices of.

Hybrids have their place, and are fine as long as this is done professionally and creates a identifiable new hybrid specie.

Mhm, pretty much. So long as people understand what they are doing and label everything properly, it wouldn't be bad. In theory. I like my purebreds, but I also like my hybrids. Wouldn't want to move either on if the person I am passing them to don't care though. As stated, I am not gonna pass a Pink Firemouth on if people don't understand that it is not a T. meeki and then get super angry when their tank turns into a blood bath.

Inbreeding as you put it,,, is incorrect terminology to use in the fish bussiness,,, unless offspring and offspring or parents and offspring breed breed together as their own choice,,,, as this is not in any way managed by the breeder or aquarist.

A more correct term is line breeding as offsprings are selected to be put back together to breed and occasionally offspring back to parent.

This, I disagree with. Inbreeding is simply breeding with closely related species. I agree sometimes it is NECESSARY to do it, or for selective breeding and stuff, but still, inbreeding is inbreeding.

A few valuable reasons for line breeding:

Only individuals of possession being a option to reproduce,, and unable to find else where.

Also is continuation of desired traits in fish as the required genetics only exist in the one bloodline,,,, for example, extra color, long fins, large bodies, small bodies, temperament and the list goes on.

That's true that to bring out traits such as listed above, I guess it's acceptable for most to allow/force fish to inbreed to achieve it. Not that many of the traits above may have much to do with actually trying to get healthier, more vigorous fish. Urgh, EBJD.

Line breeding / inbreeding does not cause deformity as a lot of people think,,,, it only increases chances of deformity.

But once deformity exists,,, it continues repetitively breeding same bloodlines.

Each group of genes responsible for each make up is called a allele. Example,, one group of genes will make up fins.

When the same bloodline has the same fault in a allele the two faults meet up and create a deformity.

Note: there a number of different ways a deformity occurs also.

Using a individual from a alternate bloodline will usually cancel out the fault as the good/healthy gene will take over.

But sometimes deformities can be a dominant trait.

Things are a lot more complicated than just this,,, but this is just a rough gauge.

Pretty much. As with everyone else I agree it is all about chances. Only issue is that the chances are higher in inbreds, as the sisters and brothers tend to share very similar genetics.

Anyways that's why some fish can be selective breed for 20 generations and nothing. But some may be inbred just once and suddenly boom.

Fish are interesting creatures, especially when genetics come into play. I guess to each there own, though nothing really is inherently wrong.

Except for maybe inking. I think we can all agree on that.

[rosco]

It is also about the preservation of the pure species in oz because of the lack of ability to legally import pure lines especially Americans. The biggest fear is species will be lost to the hobby, certainly in Australia.

In nature fish inbreed and interbreed all the time. In fact I am pretty sure that one of pseudo acei variants only lives and breds in one tiny area in the lake. So the bloodline is theoretically thin to begin with but pure. The Egyptian's and 18th century English monarchy gave inbreeding a bad name.

I am afraid I am purist. I have always tried my best to get and breed pure cichlid lines and keep them that way. Also one of the reasons I traveled to Sydney and joined the nswcs to learn more about cichlids and meet breeders and buy from them.

White craned Glow in the dark fish and things like blue peacocks are simply not for me but have a place in a display tank for some. As long they are sold and breed as they are not fish they are not.

Hth in your understanding.

[Buccal]

Yes inbreeding is the breeding of closely related species,,,, but when a human selects them and promotes them to breed,,,, then a better definition would be line breeding, although selecting outside bloodlines for inclusion could still define the situation "line breeding".

But without human intervention, then it's just plain inbreeding.

Relatively the same meaning,, just terminology explanation for best describing really.

[Buccal]

Some great words added Rosco.

[Azedenkae]

Yes inbreeding is the breeding of closely related species,,,, but when a human selects them and promotes them to breed,,,, then a better definition would be line breeding, although selecting outside bloodlines for inclusion could still define the situation "line breeding".

But without human intervention, then it's just plain inbreeding.

Relatively the same meaning,, just terminology explanation for best describing really.

Hey mate, no offense but you seem to be misunderstanding the term 'inbreeding'. Inbreeding is used to describe two very closely related individuals, rather than closely related species. Two individuals of different (but closely related) species would be an example of hybridization.

Doesn't matter if it's forced by humans or through choice.

[Ged]

Gino welcome to ACE Forums.

You will find most people here have strong views on the impact of hybrids on the hobby. It members aim to promote cichlids in Australia and maintain the genetic integrity of cichlid species that we have due to the limited access to genetics from overseas due to the Live Import List.

Whilst we understand that people have different tastes we ask members to respect this stance.

[Silverback]

I agree with gin0. I love the purebreds, but when I go into my lfs and see what they have in at the time and it's the same typical everday of the mill fish, it gets a bit boring as you know what fish are what and you have your favourites. If I went into my lfs one day and said you got anything new in and the lfs store says we got in a few jack dempsey cross jaguar cichlids, I would be very intetested as its something different.. I recently bought a red dragon flowerhorn cross red devil and its very exciting to watch as it is only a baby and wondering how it is going to turn out. I only bought it because it was different to what you normally get. I know there is a lot of hybrid haters out there but me buying this fish and a fish I really enjoy putting time in with, I dont see how that would affect the fish world.

[Buccal]

It's the African Malawi fish that's the most detrimental and some tangs.

Hybrid Americans are really no issue as they are very distinguishable,,,,, except for the Trimac.

We had pure Trimacs in oz but a very similar flower horn type of fish was crossed with the Trimac.

I believe now that pure Trimacs are totally lost in oz,,, I saw some in Perth,,, but not 100% sure they were pure.

90% of the time crossing Americans are safe enough to contain easily.

On the other hand Malawis are in great danger when the similar variances cross.

It can be even difficult to identify differences between pures in some instances and best done by a eye of the experienced.

Structures of purity and values must be maintained.

If something different is wanted, grab some $$$ and get some eye candy from a import list.

[Link2Hell]

The problem is more than just a view on if you like hybrid cichlids or not

the real question is the effect hybrids can and have had on pure strains

in the hobby as it's not the ones that are labeled and traded as hybrids

it's the ones that are traded under incorrect ID and this is more evident

in Malawi cichlids than any other region. This is especially critical in species

where the juveniles are the same colour and you don't know the gentics

until the males colour like has recently happened in P. saulous, other Mbuna

and the always maligned Aulonacara (lucky these are a legal import and

endangered species can be resurrected with new imported blood)

In Americans the 2 species were ID can become cloudy with are Trimacs

and Red Devils (Red Devils as they stand in the hobby now are considered

an aquarium line due to the history of the Citronelum and Labiatum lines)

this is also relevant to Jewels/Forest Jewels in the hobby.

Buccal we do have true species Trimacs in Sydney thanks to a few diehards

The problem the hobby has is attitude and lack of knowledge in some fish keepers

to correct management of fish kept and disposed of unwanted fish

Ethical hobbiests do not condone the release of fish into waterways

Aquarium businesses be they wholesale or retail need to lift their game in

correct identification of species and product knowledge but when you employ

a person for a minimum wage it's hard to find someone with more than basic

knowledge if that in some cases

Our hobby is small in comparison to other regions in the world, we are restricted

by the Allowable Import list and we are resigned to loosing species along the way

because of this, but in my eyes it's unidentified hybrids that are a bigger risk than

the ones like Flowerhorns that are labeled so you know they are hybrids

This website has always been pro true species and this is one of the terms of use

in the classifieds, so don't be offended by lack of support for hybrids here

If it's only back slapping and everyone agreeing how nice hybrids are then there

are other sites for that .............. enjoy your stay at ACE Gin0 and Silverback

we have some great members from Canberra on here and recommend CDAS

Canberra District Aquarium Society for a club in your area

[Buccal]

Pure Trimac in Sydney very good to hear,,,, the poor bugger here in Perth that got persecuted for claiming he had pure Trimac probably got them in from Sydney lol.

Yeah the red devil,,, such a classical case,, so many around flooding the market and not taken seriously hence super cheap prices.

When not taken seriously and made cheap, they are more likely to be thrown into one tank and sold of together from a lesser shop.

This is controversial though.

This has been spoken about on many American forums.

But of topic, but still in relation, it shows the importance to have a structured value system based on rarity, breeding difficulty and illusiveness.

When a value of a specie is maintained by a shop,,, the value is constantly compromised by forums and other public classifieds.

Some people sell at very cheap prices from sheer urgency from factors like space, money and so many other reasons.

The combination of serious profit breeders and passion breeders together is what's needed to keep all species in strong presence.

Calling oz and its fish keepers the "fish library".

When things become easier for profit breeders and passion breeders being able to make money or at least break even, it's a incentive for these organized thorough people to continue producing quality fish for the market.

This ensures quality control.

So,,,, when a value in a fish is destroyed by inexperienced breeders, these species becomes somewhat ignored by the experienced breeders.

So production of some species may lessen.

When all of this happens the gates are open to less reliable breeders that increase chances of hybrids getting through.

These less reliable breeders may even close all their tanks in months time as they don't care enough,,,,, which is nothing like the serious long term breeder.

These problems more or less prevalent in different areas.

Chase the quality and not the dollar savings.

[Silverback]

Like I said before I love purebreds and I have nearly owned most purebred american cichlids. When you have been in the game for a while you know what is what and what your favourites are, im just saying "like gin0" its good to come across something different at times like a cross breed of some sort, makes the hobby a little interesting at times as we are limited to what we can get our hands on in Australia.

Interesting about your point on african cichlids and how cross breeding impacts them. But Im talking about american cichlids as the topic started off on a dempsey cross jag.

Thats the second time ive seen a post about rules on talking about "hybrids" I thought this was a fish forum where you can talk about anything relating to fish, share past experince with members and seek advice and opinions?

Not saying I will be trying to sell or encourage people on cross breeding, just giving my two bob on this topic. Just because some people are against "hybrids" they shouldn't try and silence the people that like them and find them interesting.

[gin0]

100% agree with Silverback! If you can't speak your mind on any forum and have rules about what you can and cant talk about, what's the point in having a "discussion" page?

[Buccal]

You both seemed have taken to taken a bit of offense,,,, don't think your persecuted in any way,,, you are not doing or saying anything wrong I personally think fellas.

I myself always put extensions onto subjects and sometimes people think I'm directing it at them.

It's really just simple relative topics.

And yes your right everyone has their say,,, but we compare notes and at same time not taking offense unless personal description or attacks are made,,,,, extra info is always a extension of knowledge for all.

I don't know histories of aquarists on any forum,,,, and yes I apologize for starting a post beginning with your user name Gino.

Guess I was kind of making sure you or no one else were interpreting malawis to this subject.

I sometimes feel on here I'm over welcoming myself as I'm a Perth resident.

But some that has read this thread and didn't already know have learnt the fall of red devil and close call of the Trimac.

So it's made people maybe a little more aware now who has read all this.

To spill my guts,,, I breed a lot of malawi cichlids, but I've been infatuated a long time with a hybrid called the red Texas.

I have a male super green Escondido Texas and a fertile red parrot hybrid,,,, they are an excellent breeding pair.

All offspring grow up looking like their father, super green Texas,,,,,, out of thousands I've bred it seems that only two may resemble the red Texas.

NOW,,,,, there is absolutely NO WAY I would let any offspring out any where.

I feed them all to my tank buster fish.

Should any of those close to green tex looking fish mix with the pures,,,, it would screw it all up.

What I have just said should not be mentioned on these forums because it's not in any way or form of preservation of any species.

It is actually the undoing of a perfectly natural evolved species.

Love your hybrids,,,, sure, but it should be kept personal or for specialized forums that support hybrids.

So, come on here to talk about pures when you want,,,, then cross over to a hybrid forum to talk hybrids when you want.

So in a nut shell, if one has the need to tangle with hybrids,,,,, be very very vigilant.

[Link2Hell]

Thats the second time ive seen a post about rules on talking about "hybrids" I thought this was a fish forum where you can talk about anything relating to fish, share past experince with members and seek advice and opinions?

I don't think you have read my post correctly

Have you taken time to read the forum rules ?

There is no mention of not being able to discuss hybrids

all I stated was the forum was pro true species and members here are more interested in pure species

and that hybrids are not allowed to be traded in our classifieds

Sorry about expanding the hybrid discussion to Africans but it still comes down to a hybrid is a hybrid

and it doesn't matter what name you give it

There are members that keep Flowerhorns and that's their purogative I can appreciate the appeal they

have but I would sooner have a better import list and maybe that would cure the boredom of the same species

in LFS that has sent you down that path

I have seen no evidence of any victimization or flaming here and I can only see a civil exchange of opinions

If this has put you guys off contributing to the forums it seems a bit thin skinned

BTW do you know each other ?

[Azedenkae]

I think it's as simple as this: to each there own.

Whilst I totally agree that there would be so much value in being able to discuss anything related to cichlids (hence making it a full on cichlid forum), in the end the forum gets to set its ideals. Regardless of my stance, if the policy of the forum is to not discuss hybrids, then there we go.

*Shrugs*

[Azedenkae]

Thats the second time ive seen a post about rules on talking about "hybrids" I thought this was a fish forum where you can talk about anything relating to fish, share past experince with members and seek advice and opinions?

I don't think you have read my post correctly

Have you taken time to read the forum rules ?

There is no mention of not being able to discuss hybrids

all I stated was the forum was pro true species and members here are more interested in pure species

and that hybrids are not allowed to be traded in our classifieds

Sorry about expanding the hybrid discussion to Africans but it still comes down to a hybrid is a hybrid

and it doesn't matter what name you give it

There are members that keep Flowerhorns and that's their purogative I can appreciate the appeal they

have but I would sooner have a better import list and maybe that would cure the boredom of the same species

in LFS that has sent you down that path

I have seen no evidence of any victimization or flaming here and I can only see a civil exchange of opinions

If this has put you guys off contributing to the forums it seems a bit thin skinned

BTW do you know each other ?

Actually you are right, it doesn't mention not being able to discuss hybrids (at a glance). Odd, as I did remember that discussing hybrids was not allowed.