Some advice please

[Newtothis]

Hi Everyone,

As my username says, I am new to owning a fish. I adopted a South American ( so I am told by the local aquarium) cichlid and am learning how to care for it properly such as water quality, etc. I have bought a new tank for it which is 4 ft and holds approx 200 litres of water. I live in Melbourne, Australia and a couple of weeks ago we had a heat wave which the local aquarium says has stressed my fish. I came home from holidays and his eye was completely red. I changed 25% of the water and added all the necessary chemicals the shop told me too. I am very concerned as the fish (Greg) has not eaten for a couple of weeks and does not swim around at all. The temperature seems to be ok 26 degrees Celsius and I have been monitoring the ph level which is around 6.5 atm. I don't know very much about these fish but I wanted to adopt it and try to look after it properly rather than leaving it where it was. Prior to going on holidays and the heat wave, the fish appeared to be just fine.

I'm hoping someone can give me some advice please as to what may be wrong. I haven't moved him to the new tank yet as I only picked it up yesterday and have to set it up for him.

Thanks for reading my little story.

Kate

[YAL05T]

Kate,

Can you get a photo of the fish and the current set up on here?

[Newtothis]

I'm on an iPad which I just took photos of the fish with but I have no idea how to post them on here. I can post them to my Facebook page or send in an email.

[Buccal]

Quick question, do you have water surface breaking by air stone or filter outlet ?

This ensures oxygen transfer into the water.

Heat waves sends water temp over 29.c,,,,, when water exceeds this temp,,, it begins to reduce in ability to hold oxygen and the hotter it gets the worse it gets.

Sometimes I see beginners and even not beginners do everything right but doesn't dawn on them this simple trick that matters so much.

Just a probability.

Don't keep shoveling in food,,,, test is appetite every second day and do small daily water changes.

Water changes sometimes perform miracles.

[Newtothis]

Hi Buccal,

Thanks for replying. I recently bought a small new filter ( it didn't come with one when I adopted the fish)that sits inside the tank and when I turned that on (low) the fish came up next to it and looked like it was gasping for air. The current tank came with some sort of pump that regulates bubbles on the surface, so I increased them and the fish settled away from the filter. It now sits on the bottom of the tank so I can only see it's right side and hardly moves. Sometimes it looks like it is trying to move but it cannot but I'm no expert. I don't know what could be preventing it from moving around. I will do another water change tomorrow.

Thanks.

Thanks also to YAL05T for replying.

[Newtothis]

I will be attempting to post some photos on here today. Thank you for helping me so far.

Kate

[luis]

How long had the tank been running for before the heat wave?

What chemicals did you add on the ships advice?

What are the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels?

[Link2Hell]

Hi Kate

can you just confirm some more details of the info

you have ended up with a fish that is Sth American what did the LFS say it was

what is the fish being kept now before the new tank is ready

what filter is being used on what you are keeping the fish in

what are you treating him with

is the fish breathing heavy

[Newtothis]

Hi Link2Hell,

The fish shop just said he was a South American, other than that they didn't say. ( I will be attempting to post some photos later today).

It is in a tank that it has been in for 2+ years, previous owner did not do water changes, add anything at all to water or did the person have a filter in the tank. I have treated the waster as per fish shops directions and added a filter. This fish is one tough cookie!

The filter I bought was brand new, brand name is Hailea, it's internal and for a 100-200 litre tank and Greg is in about a 90 litre atm.

I actually turned it off this morning to see what the fish would do and he has moved for the first time in a week up to the front of the tank about a quarter of the way from the bottom. Had the fish shop test the water this morning, she said the ph is a bit low and there is a tiny bit of ammonia and the water is very hard. She suggested I do another 25% water change and only add the liquid solutions, no powders.

Other than the chemicals I have which are: water conditioner liquid, stability liquid, prime liquid for ammonia , nitrate and nitrite, stress guard and blue water conditioner crystals, I have not treated him with anything else.

He doesn't seem to be breathing really heavily but I would say a little bit heavily.

Thanks for replying.

Kate

[Link2Hell]

Amazes me what some fish can put up with

how big is Greg

[Newtothis]

Hi Chris,

I have been trying to upload some photos of Greg the fish but every time the first photo gets to 100% a message appears telling me that I have run out of room for uploads. Very annoying as I am not sure how to proceed. Greg the fish is about 17cm long. Both his eyes are completely milky white now and he does seem to be breathing fairly fast. I am really worried about him. The girl in the fish shop said his eyes are because of stress and he doesn't need antibiotics. I have set up his new tank and am waiting for the temperature to be right. As soon as it is, I will transfer him. If you have any advice about the uploads it would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Kate

[luis]

If there is ammonia in the tank your filter is not working properly. However, if you are using Prime then most ammonia tests may give a false reading of ammonia for a period of up to 24hrs (the Seachem MultiTest ammonia test does not have this problem).

The symptoms are consistent with ammonia poisoning, though. You need to start doing daily water changes, making sure to match the pH and temperature. I usually change 70%, but 50% daily should do it. Have you been doing these at all?

Ammonia is more toxic at higher temperatures and higher pH. Hopefully you are not using chemicals to try to alter the pH of your tap water?

Other than the chemicals I have which are: water conditioner liquid, stability liquid, prime liquid for ammonia , nitrate and nitrite, stress guard and blue water conditioner crystals, I have not treated him with anything else.

I'm concerned that you are using a cocktail of chemicals that are not doing any good, or are even harming your fish.

When you do your water changes add Prime and nothing else. There is no need for other water conditioners when you use Prime---from reading the above it seems that you are you using two conditioners? Stability is also ok as it is basically bacteria that are meant to colonise your filter. I'm not familiar with the conditioner crystals.

Stress guard has antiseptic properties (irrelevant if Greg isn't wounded) but also has similar properties to Prime in that it detoxifies ammonia. For this reason I would not use this together with Prime.

As you may know, you can use an overdose of Prime (up to 5x) to detoxify ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite. I assume that's what you mean when you say "prime liquid for ammonia , nitrate and nitrite". Read about it in the Prime FAQ.

[Newtothis]

Hi Luis,

Thanks for replying,

I have only been using the chemicals I stated above for about three weeks now as I have only recently been caring for this fish. I know absolutely nothing about them a apart from what they have advised me in the fish shop and what you lovely people have been telling me on here. I have only done two 25% water changes in the time I have been caring for the fish. Last Monday I was told the ph of the water was way too low and was sold ph up powder and he told me to add two of the spoonfuls that day and then continue to do this until the reading was correct. No, I did not know you can use too much Prime. They don't tell you these things at the pet/ aquarium shop.

Yesterday, we were setting up the new tank I bought. I have added prime to that water, water conditioner, stability liquid and the blue crystals as per the shops instructions. Have I done the wrong thing? I tested the ph of the water and it was 7 so I have not added anything for that.

Thanks

Kate

[Ged]

Kate the easiest way is to use Photobucket to host your images. See here for details;

http://www.aceforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=55613

If you still get stuck email them to me at aceforumsATlive.com. Remember to replace the AT with a @.

Ged

[Newtothis]

Thanks Ged, I will take a look.

[Buccal]

Seeing it up to this point,,,, really does look like ammonia burn.

As Luis said seachem prime alone does what's needed in most cases.

Be careful of advice from chain stores like city farmers, pet city and what ever else you have there,,,, although sometimes you will find a true knowledgable in these places, but not often.

Know that all chemicals to serve these problems never will fix the problem,,, they essentially only soften the blow.

I'll tell you what I'd do in this situation and believe its your best option. (though I have the luxury of a big breeding room and display tanks which makes this option easier for me).

Find a freind with a tank or tanks,,,,, or your aquarium shop.

Collect buckets that will carry at least half the volume of your new tank,,, but the more the better.

Grab a 1liter container with lid,,,,,,,

Fill these buckets with mature water from established aquariums.

Squeeze the gunky sludgy pooey crap from their filter media into your 1liter bottle.

Back at your house fill your new tank up with this mature water and top up rest with tap water.

Open your filter and pour the contents of the 1 liter container straight in.

Your tank water will look dirty to begin with, but will clear up fast.

Dump your fish in and done.

A bit of messing around, but you will fixx your problem in less than a day and it won't keep rolling into another problem then another.

I've set up so many tanks for myself and others this way,,, and from ths method there is no such thing as waiting for the tank to cycle if done correctly.

Prime is one of the best conditioners and Definetely has its place.

I have devoted my life to fish and live on 4.5 acres with fish everywhere in the house and out,,,,, from cichlids to stingrays.

And having all these fish and kept in various ways I haven't used any conditioners for over ten years.

I do use ground water for breeding rooms.

I use scheme tap for inside displays.

I guess conditioners are only needed if you have chlorine or metals in the water supply,,, but don't look at chemicals as being there to solve all your problems,,, they just soften the blow.

Learn to work with mother nature and not against it,,,,,

[Newtothis]

Thank you Buccal for all that advice. I do not know anyone with a fish tank and I'm not sure the local aquarium will let me have some of their water, I guess I can ask. I checked the levels of ph and ammonia in the new tank this morning. Ph was 7.3 and ammonia was nil. Just been out and bought a brand new filter, a Aqua One Nautilus 1400 which is a bigger one for a 4ft tank but I'm hoping it will keep the ammonia levels down easier. If the aquarium won't help me out, I'm just going to transfer Greg over to the new tank and keep my fingers crossed. It's certainly so much cleaner and healthier than the one he has been surviving in for the past two years with no maintenance whatsoever. I figure, it can't get any worse for him Buccal.

Thanks again,

Kate

[Newtothis]

Just wanted to say thank you to all that replied to me and gave such awesome advice. Greg the fish is in his new tank and I have done all I can do for him atm, the rest is up to him. He is a survivor though so I'm really hoping he will be ok.

I emailed photos to Ged and he is going to be kind enough to put them up for me, thanks Ged.

I'm very grateful to this forum and will be a regular visitor.

Thanks again,

Kate

[Ged]

Here are Kate's photos of Greg.

[Buccal]

Well, Geophagus brasiliensis, tough as nails, this explains why it has put up with so much.

The eye damage looks irreversible and surely blind.

Still say ammo burn due to no nitrogen cycle presence.

The milky water is typical of a ammonia spike.

These types fish really do survive what most others can't,,,,,, guppies can be hardy to.

[malawi sand diver]

Interesting because I would associate ammonia burn with red gills, red marks on the body and the fish flashing (rubbing against things constantly).

Seems like this fish is lethargic and has cloudy eyes, caused by a bacterial infection. The edges of the fins also look OK which usually get frayed with ammonia burn. In which case an anti bacterial medication should suffice if ammonia levels are controlled with daily water changes and products such as Seachem Safe.

[Newtothis]

Thank you to both Buccal and Malawi sand diver for the input. I thought his eyes may have been due to a bacterial issue but girl in fish shop said it was stress. Think I may take the photo to another shop which has been recommended and ask because if if it bacterial I will buy some medication for him. This is his new tank so I am monitoring all the levels very closely and I have a big filter as well.

Thanks again and thanks to Ged for posting the photos for me.

Kate

[Ged]

I only posted up the photos of "Greg" in his new tank that Kate sent through.

[Buccal]

Interesting because I would associate ammonia burn with red gills, red marks on the body and the fish flashing (rubbing against things constantly).

Seems like this fish is lethargic and has cloudy eyes, caused by a bacterial infection. The edges of the fins also look OK which usually get frayed with ammonia burn. In which case an anti bacterial medication should suffice if ammonia levels are controlled with daily water changes and products such as Seachem Safe.

Ammo spikes : sensitive areas are effected immediately,, gills and eyes.

If the eyes go milky in color over a course of time then it's likely bacterial due to gram-negative bacteria.

I've seen fish with burnt gills and white eyes come out of bags due to severe ammo spikes.

Don't under estimate these geo brasils, they have are true survivors and are deemed a worrying pest in the Swan River tributaries here in Perth.

I've seen a heap of large individuals survive in a bath tub with nothing but water,, ammonia wouldn't kill them and they didn't have frayed fins like the more delicate less robust smaller cichlids would get.

Relatively high prolonged levels of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate will support bad bacteria growth,,,, and funguses also.

Once these unwanted nasties become present it's hard to irradicate them completely,,, only good maintenance will keep these nasties to a low count at bay and will remain harmless to fish.

Having a decent filter with both biological and mechanical filtration keeps it all in check as long as the filter maintenance is taken care of on a regime set basis,,,, by keeping the mechanical media free from being clogged.

I wouldn't be surprised if this fish was hammered by both bacterial infection and ammonia burn.

Just adding also,,, Kate, once the filter is in use it needs time to mature, so the filter will be doing nothing at all for the first three weeks,,,, you will encounter more definite ammo spikes.

Use seachem prime every third day with doing a water change of 20% before adding prime.

The beneficial bacteria needs time to establish to convert the nasties into a nearly harmless state.

Google beneficial bacteria in aquarium filters and the nitrogen cycle.

You must have a moderate understanding of the science to be successful.

Parrot knowledge always causes problems.

[Link2Hell]

Hi Kate

have you tried adding non iodised salt

this is a good natural disinfectant that works with fungal, parasite

and some bacterial problems

dosage I use is 1 table spoon to 20 litres over a 2-3 week period

and would guess the 4ft tanks would be approx 160 litres of water

so 8 tablespoons of salt

over a couple of weeks I would expect to film to come away from the eye

just need to add salt at the above ratio when water changing and see how

he is then

I don't like salt with low pH fish and most catfish

I don't know what the blue crystals are you were given possibly medicated

salt mix or water conditioner maybe Sodium Thiosulphate

you will find when the resistance drops from the primary problem you will

get a secondary bacterial problem

I would also recommend you remove any carbon from the filters