frontosa's dropping like flies........help

[GERMAN]

looking for some advice, in the past 2-3months I have lost 4 frontosa's and I cant work out why......im not new to keeping fish/cichlids and haven't had any problems in the past keeping different species.

Some of you may have seen my set up in the photography thread, I do weekly 1/3 water changes, Iv checked the chemistry of the water all seems fine, PH is around 8-9, nirite 0-5ppm, ammonia 0-5ppm, nitrate 10-20pp at the end off the week, temp around 26.

Have always been feed on NLS threa A, but have recently changed to new era as the NLS pellets were floating and ending up in my overflow box, clean my sump filters out once a month, which I think is fine? correct me if im wrong......

any help would be appreciated.

[damoq]

What's happening with the fish before they are dying? Are they getting skinny or can you see any noticabe marks on the fish?? There has been a few cases of anchor worm in frontosas lately but they are very noticeable on the host so I think you would definitely know if your fish were infected with these. Are the fish lethargic at all?? More info on the behaviour might help!

[Joel]

Hi German,

Do you feed a range of foods or just the New Era?

Are the fish still producing waste?

I don't know if it has got much/anything to do with it but I notice that New Era Red has 0.5% fibre. It doesn't seem like alot of fiber to aid digestion.

NLS Thera A contains around 5% fiber.

One possibility is perhaps they are not used to the sudden change in fiber content?

I change it up with foods every so often and give them krill or mysis or brine etc.

I'm certainly no expert in fish food and have been feeding New Era to my frontosa since I got them seemingly without issue. I have noticed that sometimes the odd one appears as though they put more effort into swimming downward if that makes sense. Almost like a very very mild case of float. Have had no deaths, however.

Hope you are able to sought it out before losing anymore.

Cheers

Joel

[Buccal]

With your ammonia and nitrite readings which should be zero at the same time of changing foods tells a possible story.

Using New Era requires a little less needed, and make the change gradual.

With ammo nitrite readings, it appears your feeding to much food,,, when I made the change to New Era I almost come unstuck,,, just feed a little less and maybe incorporate some New Era algae flake or sera-flora flake (15%).

Don't feed for a whole week then resume back to normal feeding 30% less than you have been.

[lloydashton]

More detail around the fish death is needed mate. And sorry to hear your loosing some.

What are the symptoms before death. Torn fins? Bloated? Lethargic? and Sores on the fish? Are they eating food consistently before death? Tank aggression?

You say PH around 8- 9, do you know the actual PH, A large PH drop cause shock could kill them and 8 - 9 is a big change if it is sudden. Besides the PH the other water readings shouldnt kill the fish and neither would the food. Frontosa do have harder stomachs than other Tangs.

[GERMAN]

WOW,thanks for the repies,

Befor i start i want to clear up something there was meant to be a . in my ammonia and nitrite readings, so that 0-0.50 sorry my bad.

the only noticeable symptoms was that the fish were lethargic, stay close to the bottom on the tank with not much moment sometimes laying on their side. no tank aggression, no other fish in tank that pick on the frontosa......

lloydashton>> ph is more low to mid 8's usually 8.2.

Joel>> as for feeding them yes i do feed them a few other frozen foods but not to often, brine/mysis shrimp or fresh green prawns chopped up i found the best as it doesnt foul the water to much, also only feed once a day always have.

also with the change to new era i noticed the fish became fuller alot quicker, so i did cut back the amount i was giving them about a a fortnight ago.

the last fish that last past away was on saturday and i made the change to new era over a month ago, so i dont think its the food?

Its craPting me i know that! haha :-(

[lloydashton]

Are the deaths soon after a water change?

I highly doubt it is the food. When they were looking lethargic how long was it until they died? Where they breathing very heavily?

[Buccal]

It wouldn't be the actuall food that harms them if over fed,,, it's uneaten or food that sits for a while before getting eaten that causes ammo spikes for longer than usual periods.

But seeming that your true corrected ammo/nitrite readings are non existent, then it's likely not over feeding.

Make sure your temp isn't to high.

They need highly oxygenated water as most tangs do.

Any raw prawn is a big no no.

They are sprayed with preservatives which usually disappears after cooking.

Also prawns contain thiaminase which gives thiaminase poisoning if they uptake enough.

Most people on here likely haven't heard of this.

Google,,, thiaminase poisoning feeding raw prawns to ornamental fish.

Ph 8.2

Don't over feed

Water change often

Temp 26'c

Water surface churning

Don't excessively maintain filters

Wash filter media in bucket of tank water.

No aggression

Water not excessively soft

If all of these are happening, then there's no reason for any problems.

A mate of mine had a fish tank I set up for him.

The fish kept dying and water always fouling up,,,, we couldn't work out what the h e l l.

Lol, it turned out that both his very young daughters kept feeding them for the hell of it.

There's possibly other reasons outside of your administering is what I'm getting at.

[ukelayottscay]

Lethargic and occasionally on their side - could it be lack of oxygen/airation?

[Buccal]

It can be lacking of oxygen to have those effects.

Lacking in oxygen can be from water not being oxygenated properly.

Or fish lacking oxygen can also be gill burn due to a ammonia spike for a extended period of time.

The gills are no longer working to full ability resulting in death if to far gone,,, which usually is what happens if their gills are burnt.

Oxygen deprivation in water will see fish gasping at surface then at a later final stage before death they will sit on the bottom with pulsing gills.

Gill burn on the other hand from excessive ammo,,, they will sit on bottom from start to finish with pulsing gills.

[malawi sand diver]

I agree it may be the prawns that are the issue, but need to know the frequency that those are fed to them. Aside from the chemical preservative on them, I'd say it would decrease the water quality.

Maybe frozen brine shrimp blocks would be better. But better still is raising your own live food. I am in the process of setting up some live food tanks with cherry shrimp, daphnia and fry that I breed for live food. Maybe that would be a better option than the prawn.

[GERMAN]

I haven't fed them prawns for a while now, as I thought that may of be one on the contributing factors to them dying as one of the fish died shortly after feeding them frozen prawns, but that was earlier on in the piece, two more have died since then....

the only other frozen foods I feed them are from the aquarium shop that they sell there!

the lack of oxygen could be the culprit, but all the fish have a slow breathing motion and it doesn't appear like they are short of breath, also to my understanding my filter set up (trickle filter with a overflow box) naturally oxygenates the water as it runs through the filter process?? maybe someone could clear that up for me.....

well this morning I done some more testing and one really surprised me, here the pics I have nothing to hide LOL eeeek.....

Nitrite and ammonia

Nirate, was a little higher than normal also today is my water change day will do a larger than normal water change this arvo, it was somewhere between 20-40pp

and this is the one that got me, last time I tested the ph was over a month ago, but it has jump from 8.2ish to a solid 8.8 or higher.....

[malawi sand diver]

There are 3 ways you can increase oxygen in the tank:

1. Increase agitiation at the water's surface (your trickle fileter setup should do that) this increases the surface area of the water.

2. Make sure there is good flow in the tank, the current passing the fishes body oxygenates it

3. plants

I uses a comination of the return pump plus 2 powerheads inside the tank to increase 1 & 2.

Having said that, I don't think your problems are due to food or oxygen or external parasites.

Now looking at your nitrite it looks OK but the ammonia looks high. It looks like it has too much greenish tinge to it. I wouldn't rule out an ammonia spike as the problem.

If the fish don't have swollen bellies & stringy white poo, you can rule out internal parsites.

So I'm thinking amonia is the issue.

Which declorinator do you use and what is your filtration? Is there a chance the bacteria may have been killed off?

[malawi sand diver]

Yeah looking at those readings I'm pretty sure your filter could be improved. I have found that the larger the fish get, the more filtration they need. Maybe you could add a cinister filter to your tank, you can never really over filter a tank.

[GERMAN]

here's my filter

Also on the water changes I use filtered water to refill the tank, I'm a plumber so it was easy to sort out a mains pressure filter system similar to a pura tap or filtered drinking water system. also I use seachem prime, Its also its hard to see the colour of test tube accurately, they all look a bit darker in the pics, hence why I put them in front of the white tile to try and show the colour a bit better...

always clean out the sponges in the filter in the tank water to......

I did see one fish with a long stringy poo the other day but it wasn't white and he is still happy as larry..... actually all the other fish seem 100% still come to the surface at feeding time aren't lethargic don't show any symptoms

Any tips for eliminating the ammonia??

[malawi sand diver]

You have a nice setup there. Good work with the plumbing, I am a plumber's son so can appreciate the setup you did.

In the past I have used a product called Nitrazorb which comes in a sock that you can just throw in the sump in the stream of the water that absorbs the ammonia and nitrite

Then I added bit more prime to the tank water to temporarily get rid of ammonia.

I would check under the rocks for any uneaten food or waste that may be a source of ammonia. Also a powerhead inside the tank may improve the situation, a cheap powerhead wavemaker from ebay would do the trick (about 10 bucks). Make sure the water flow and circulation is good in the main tank so that the detritus makes its way into the sump.

Then long term it may be worth considering adding more ceramic noodles and maybe even replacing the bioballs with something like seachem matrix or other ceramic material. The key is to set it up in a way that you never (or very infrequently) need to clean the ceramic noodles, so that they always have a strong colony of bacteria. I use fine filter wool on top, then coarser bio mat over the top of the noodles. Not much of the larger gunk makes its way into the noodles.

Regards, Rob

[GERMAN]

thanks Rob,

think I might go to the fish shop later and get some Nitrazorb......hope that solves or at least helps the problem.

I clean the gravel every water change and move rocks regularly....

I did think about seachem matrix on the initial build but that stuff isn't cheap!!! and my build budget already blew out LOL, maybe its something to think about now tho!

thanks for the Info!

cheers Mark.

[joey13]

Mate I would say you are cleaning your filter too often and probably getting rid of beneficial bacteria that resides which would be causing ammonia spikes or mini cycles.

I have a similar setup to yours and there's no way you should be having to clean them out that often.

[GERMAN]

well I think I have solved the problem......

Iv just got back from a week holiday, but a day befor I left I changed a few things, well added more the case,

I added some fine filter wool on top of my course filter foam and added one bag of nitrazorb, one bag said it does 200L and it was 25 bux a bag so I only got one, Iv nearly got 800L of water in my tank and sump so I don't know how effective it was, also done a 50% water change. But when I got home the tank looked extra clear I thought my water was very clear to start with, but noticeably different now. I haven't had a chance to test the water yet but I will tonight... but things look good and I haven't lost any more fish.

Joey13>> I only clean the sponges out once a month in the tank water, do you think that's to often??, I haven't touched the bio balls or noodles since Iv set it up.

[malawi sand diver]

Sounds good, the break from feeding would have decreased the nitrates, aswell as the changes you made, sounds like the nitrogen cycle may be back in balance.

[joey13]

Hey mate, good to hear your tank is sorted and you are not losing anymore fish.

Have a look at my setup here

http://www.aceforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=56638&page=4

Toward the bottom of the page you can see pics of my sump. Different to yours but also similar.

Because I have 3 stages of foam going from coarse-medium-fine 10ppi-20ppi-30ppi, I can probably get away with longer service intervals. I'm aiming not to touch mine for 18 months.

However depending on the thickness and pore size of your foam, I would say at least 6 months before you have to service it. And even then, it would only be if the flow was impeded. Otherwise leave it alone

That brown sludge that develops on the foam is one of the most beneficial types of bacteria you can have. If its not reducing too much flow, I'd leave it.

I used to service my fx5 at 12 month intervals and never lost a fish, always healthy and breeding.

[joey13]

Try using Seachem Purigen. Awesome Stuff!

[Buccal]

Yep, back in balance, I reckon to.

When you notice a sudden clarity with out using water buffers like Purigen, usually it means all caught up, and done.

[GERMAN]

awesome guys thanks for ya help!, Now time to restock with some fish lol.........$$$$$$$$:-(

[Buccal]

Bit by bit.

Let the beneficial bacteria catch up after each few additions.