E4G13M4N Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Although some literature refers to them as a hybrid that is incorrect i beleive as they are cross bred between 2 felines . The liger is a cross between a male lion (Panthera leo) and a tigress (Panthera tigris). Thus, it has parents with the same genus.. From my understanding anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrod Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Hybridization doesn't occur in the wild at all, it never has... Liger is cross between two species true, but it was intentional just like flowerhorns Hybrids and crosses have been recorded in the wild. Ad konnings his written about his findings. It has happened. Although some literature refers to them as a hybrid that is incorrect i beleive as they are cross bred between 2 felines . The liger is a cross between a male lion (Panthera leo) and a tigress (Panthera tigris). Thus, it has parents with the same genus.. From my understanding anyway You may be right. I have always thought of them as a hybrid. But the way you put it makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noxious_nasties Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Well if you want to get real technical most cichlids are hybrid/ crossbread. A long long time ago there would have been a few species. But cichlids have forever evolved and crossed to become what they are today. But again that could be said about everything dogs, cats, humans hahahahaha Correct. Anything that is not a clone of each other will produce 'hybrid' offspring. This is because every species has different genes that provide different characteristics therefore creating a 'genetic' hybrid. The way people use the term hybrid is very loose. The term has many different meanings and applies on different levels. Hybridization doesn't occur in the wild at all, it never has... The reason why you have variant's or subspecies such as Gibberosa 'kitumba' or 'moba' is because of genetic hybridisation. Subspecies are given the name because they are on the verge of speciation (becoming a new species) but have not yet changed enough to be classified as a species of their own. The great lakes are very unique in that the environment they live creates either a "bottleneck affect" or "founder effect" (can't remember which one). The result is that this environment allows for the formation of many subspecies and eventually new species. On another aspect, the minute you remove a species from the wild you will create your own genetic hybrid population. Many of the species' genes within the overall species living in the lake are left out due to the limited breeding stock that someone will import. This is an example of the founder effect. In turn, as people continue to breed or line breed the species, eventually the population's gene pool will be even more limited. This is particularly evident within the hobby when a species loses its main population and becomes 'rare' within the hobby. The remaining population already has a limited gene pool which is now further reduced. This is why it is invalid to consider many homebred cichlids suitable for release back into the wild... the genes are just too limited and would be line bred to the original minor population that was imported - which is not a true representation of the whole population . Hope I've explained that ok, it gets very scientific when you look into the concept of species and hybrids. The definition of species is still not scientifically defined either so this makes things even more complicated. Regards, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrod Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Very well explained! It's a very complex matter. But you summed it up perfect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johns Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Quoted from Auscichlids forum Re: Peacock crosses etc by Norm Halliwell « Reply #3 on: February 26, 2011, 07:56:49 AM » Dear Hood, I have also heard that the Marbled Peacock was a hybrid Mbuna/Aulonocara cross but I am yet to be convinced as if this was the case you would have seen some indication in the juveniles either in the early stages or later on through the breeding, but I have never seen any, either in Australia or overseas. So, until some concrete facts are given to prove beyond any doubts that they are Mbuna crossed with Aulonocara, I am inclined to call them Aulonocara spp "marbled". I do believe they are not from the wild, but from a cultured strain, and there are always suspicions when a species is from a cultured strain, with most people thinking they are hybrids. However, facts are what we should all be looking for, and there are none that I know of with this species, unlike the Flower Horn or Red Parrots (which by the way was removed from consideration for import by our authorities, as it did not have a valid scientific name when someone from Industry wanted it to be imported, I believe it was either AI or Bay Fish at the time) or D. "marbled" compressiceps. So, if it does not have a valid scientific name as in Red Parrots, this is surely good enough reasons to show it is not a "true" species. No such distinction currently exists with the Marbled Peacock that I am aware of. I may be wrong, and I'll stand corrected if this can be proven., regards Norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 It is also worth noting Jodie Lea's post on the qldaf post on the same topic. Did you read that one johns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E4G13M4N Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I read it Mattrox but its inconclusive doesnt prove either way. Plus if Ad says they originate from the Florida fish farms iknow who i would trust.. Still doesnt change the label they were imported under 10 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiem Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I agree wholeheartedly with E4G13M4n.Even Heiko Bleher does not doubt Ad Konings word as stated in a pm to Fish Antics on the Perth Cichlid Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I know Ad's work with Malawis is second to none. All I've said is that a DNA test for the mbuna genes that confer the OB trait would be conclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johns Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 Posted in QLDAF Recently AQIS QLD read on the internet somewhere (now there's a reliable and trustworthy scientific database) that OB Peacocks were a hybrid. So they started confiscating them on arrival. Didn't actually bother to let anybody know they were going to do this - such as an official announcement or email - just started killing shipments as they arrived. They were taking both tangerine and OBs. One importer challenged this and had specimens sent to the Museum for ID. Without going into too much detail - the results were as follows: "Count of fin rays, scales and gill rakers....were best fit with Aulonocara spp" With regards to teeth: "Pseudotropheus zebra has distinctly bicuspid teeth in the outer rows and numerous inner rows of distinctly tricuspid teeth. No indication of this character state was found in any of the specimens." "It was not possible to provide a species level identification but all specimens were most closely aligned with the genus Aulonocara. None of the specimens exhibited features consistent with or significantly aligned with other Malawi Cichlid genera." So - we could conclude that if the OB gene was brought in to the peacock group by cross breeding - there has been sufficient line breeding back to type for morphology to indicate only peacock genetics (DNA testing would be the only way to be certain) This is not uncommon in breeders of birds, mammals etc - getting a colour gene from one species and then breeding back to type with the original. The results were of course ignored by AQIS. They will allow tangerines, but not OB. Further proof AQIS Queensland runs as a law unto themselves - all other states can still bring in OB peacocks. Where is Fair Trading when you need them??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johns Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 We as a hobbyist need to be cautious as to what we state about our hobby as it seems to be taken as gospel by some by the looks of the post above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I strongly feel that the "anti-hybrid" passion that is around has been counter productive. It sends the wrong signals, that hobbyists want fish banned, hence it is ok just to declare fish noxious or ban import because hobbyists aren't too fussed anyway. At best it's the thin end of the wedge. I think it is time to accept the "ornamental" trade which might include known hybrids. and educate against accidental hybrids and the danger of passing on unknown fish. I think it is important to actively breed and promote the keeping of "true to type" fish. There is room in the hobby for lots of views and opinions. But we must be actively promoting our hobby and letting authorities know that it is not ok to ban our fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benno Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Couldnt agree more Matt. As long as the message is spread there will always be responsible breeders out there. I feel an even greater danger to getting good quality cichlids is the rapidly rising power costs etc. This is already and will continue to close down specialist aquarium stores all over the country. Before long we will probably only have rich chain stores selling cross bred,uncoloured and deformed stock like they do now. Breeders like the members on here that are doing a great job keeping the rarer types going are the key to the future i believe. Thats not saying all LFS will close down either, just my opinion, Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E4G13M4N Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Posted in QLDAF The results were of course ignored by AQIS. They will allow tangerines, but not OB. Further proof AQIS Queensland runs as a law unto themselves - all other states can still bring in OB peacocks. Where is Fair Trading when you need them??? Not quite true either i know SA cant import them (local importer now closed down) and pretty sure Vic cant either at the moment. Cant comment on NSW or WA though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E4G13M4N Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Couldnt agree more Matt. As long as the message is spread there will always be responsible breeders out there. I feel an even greater danger to getting good quality cichlids is the rapidly rising power costs etc. This is already and will continue to close down specialist aquarium stores all over the country. Before long we will probably only have rich chain stores selling cross bred,uncoloured and deformed stock like they do now. Breeders like the members on here that are doing a great job keeping the rarer types going are the key to the future i believe. Thats not saying all LFS will close down either, just my opinion, Cheers You have summed that up pretty well Benno, i know of 8 - 10 shops in SA alone that are trying to sell or closing in the near future if they cant secure a sale. A couple have already closed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogboy Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Couldnt agree more Matt. As long as the message is spread there will always be responsible breeders out there. I feel an even greater danger to getting good quality cichlids is the rapidly rising power costs etc. This is already and will continue to close down specialist aquarium stores all over the country. Before long we will probably only have rich chain stores selling cross bred,uncoloured and deformed stock like they do now. Breeders like the members on here that are doing a great job keeping the rarer types going are the key to the future i believe. Thats not saying all LFS will close down either, just my opinion, Cheers You have summed that up pretty well Benno, i know of 8 - 10 shops in SA alone that are trying to sell or closing in the near future if they cant secure a sale. A couple have already closed wow i knew of a few closing up or for sale but 8 - 10 is a real worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benno Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 A damn shame really. Hopefully its mostly the crappy ones closing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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