Are Marble Peacocks Line Bred?

[johns]

Hi All,

please note this thread is about wether there is evidence of marbled peacocks being hybrids, not about wether you like them

I came across this article in Auscichlids Forum and thought it was a good read.

Dear Members of Auscichlids.

I have been asked to reply to a question from Tony Corr about the sale of cichlids eg, Marbled Peacocks, Dragon Blood Peacocks and Tangerine Peacocks etc, etc. The Tangerine Peacock was developed in Sydney by Henry and Elaine Pinkowski, and called Pink Peacocks at the time, from a recessive gene from Aulonocara mbenji, and in the early years it had “throw-backs” of the A.mbenji in the progeny, but over a number of years the Tangerine colour has become more fixed and is in fact an Aulonocara species “tangerine”. The same goes for A.”dragon blood” from overseas development, as well as Aulonocara “eureka red” jacobfreibergi that was developed in Germany from wild caught specimens in the Lake itself. The Marbled Peacock is now well and truly entrenched in the Hobby and it breeds true to shape and colouration, although some are more colourful than others, but that is the same with all Aulonocara species. I believe it should remain as a viable species for all cichlid keepers to hold and breed. The same goes for any albino form of cichlids eg, Aulonocara “albino” species, Neolamprologus Albino brichardi, Otopharynx auromarginatus “albino, and recently Albino Psuedotropheus pindani, as well as Psedotropheus Albino greshakei, and P. albino red face macropthalmus and as well as the Gold Severum that is a recessive gene of the Green Severum, as none of these albino forms or the Gold severum exists in the wild as they would be too conspicuous and would soon be eliminated by other predatory species.

However, there are other hybrids that are being traded, eg, Flower Horns and Red Parrots and Dimidiochromis “marbled” compressiceps, to name a few that are certainly cross-bred species that I believe are causing problems within the Cichlid Keeping fraternity, especially the Flower Horns and Red parrots, with the former being one of the most aggressive species of hybrid ever known to man, as where you see these fish, and they are mainly in asian stores, they are tanked singularly showing to the viewer that they cannot be kept with each other, let alone with other species. Recently, the “Electric Blue” blue ramerizi has begun to appear on the market, and it is a another coloured variety of the normal blue rams, but some of them have shown a golden sheen to them, which means that they have both the blue and gold genes in their genes, and the Gold Ram is not a wild caught species either. I have heard of an albino or white form of the Cyphotilapia frontosa in the wild, but am yet to see one in captivity here in Australia, or overseas. Sure there have been reports, but until I see one, I am not convinced of its existence. The Paracyprichromis nigripinnis has an albino form as well, but this is a home grown one as none exist in the wild, as is the albino form of Melanochromis auratus. The white form (not albino, as some lists state) of Convicts are a man-made species as I don’t believe they live in the wild, with almost all of them being developed overseas from individuals that have been hatched from the original strain, which in most cases are a recessive gene, as in the Gold Severums.

Albino forms are not as strong as the original strain, and have been killed off pretty quickly, eg O.”Albino” aureomarginatus mentioned earlier, with some others being much hardier eg, White Convicts, Albino N.leleupi, just to name a couple. There are also heaps of other species that are developing “albino” strains of other tropical species overseas that are being accepted the World over eg, Tiger Barbs, Angelfish, Discus, Bristle Nose catfish and all its various shapes, Corydoras cats, Paradise Fish, Oscars, Albino Rainbow Sharks, Glowlight Tetra, Pristella Tetra, just to name a few, and all of these are completely acceptable in the Australian Industry.

I do however, draw the line on intergeneric crosses whereby you come up with species like Flower Horns, Red Parrots, and D. marbled compressiceps to name a few. If intergeneric crosses are allowed to be kept and bred without any consideration as to the damages these do to the original strain they come from, taking into consideration that we will never be allowed to import the original species again, then I pity what will happen over the next couple of decades, when I retire from this Industry. The cichlid society’s mandate is the furtherance of information to the members of the Society and about the Cichlid Family in general to all its members and anyone wishing to listen and NOT, I repeat NOT the breeding and keeping and selling of HYBIDS!!

This has come about by a question from Tony Corr who is of the opinion that such species as Marbled Peacocks should be banned from trading in the Society. But if this does occur, you will have to ban all Angelfish Varieties, all Discus Varieties as well as all the others mentioned above and the like, as they do not exist in the wild either, so where do you draw the line on such matters. I believe when a species is KNOWN to be a HYBRID or an INTERGENERIC cross it should not be kept by true hobbyists, but that is just my opinion for what it is worth. Others will have their own opinion and will stick to it no matter what others will say. But I have stressed my opinion here,

regards Norm Halliwell.

[E4G13M4N]

I still beleive they are hybrids for the simple fact many years ago they were imported as

A.haensbanchi x OB Zebra then line bred for the peacock shape

That is what they were imported as and why they are no longer allowed to be imported from what i have been informed from one of the major importers, ( they still sell them from local stocks but cant import them)

[E4G13M4N]

I should also mention that they were supposedly taken off the allowable import at the same time as the spiny eels, even though they still show on the list i beleive as being allowed to import..

AQUIS want proof that the spinys etc are not hybrids but importers dont want to fork out the money for testing, which is why anything rumoured to be hybrids will eventually be taken off the imort list.

One of the reasons blood parrots failed their bid to be added to the list, didnt stop the smugglers though

[Ducksta]

I think it's drawing a long bow to declare that all known hybrids are dangerous to the hobby but that angelfish and discus are fine. (Says the bloke with a tank full of tank bred angels.)

My understanding is that the aquarium strains of these fish have been categorically proven to not be a variant of a pure wild species? The difference is that a lot of the cross breeding and line breeding done with these fish was that it was before the fish were identified as different species in the wild?

What it proves, I suppose, is that once these things have been around for a long enough while, they gain regular acceptance - even among people who would argue against the practice of 'creating' them today.

[fishdance]

AQUIS want proof that the spinys etc are not hybrids but importers dont want to fork out the money for testing, which is why anything rumoured to be hybrids will eventually be taken off the imort list.

This is not quite true. The spiney eels coming through have 2 extra vertebrae than the ones on schedule 6 (the species allowed in). Several queensland importers have paid for detailed analysis to be done on several different occasions but all with the same result each time. As a result, AQIS have been stopping spiney eels from coming in until it can be shown they are the "real' spiney eel. Whether the origional spiney eel was incorrectly described back then or whether all the spiney eels are a now different species/hybrid, no-one knows. Its not up to AQIS to prove a fish, its up to the importers. Its just a good way to reduce the number of importable species IMO. Its not just the hybrids that will be stopped eventually. All grey list fish have been earmarked.

[mattrox]

you need to follow this debate on the PCS forum and ozfishforsale forum.

[E4G13M4N]

Not a member of those forums although some interesting debates,

Marble peacocks have been around for more than 15 years that i know of, 9 years ago were still imported and listed as a hybrid but around 7 - 8 years ago the importers seemed to stop listing them as a hybrid but just labelled them as Marbled Peacock or Aulaocara sp *Marble*. Some importers stopped labelling them even before that,

Its a pity i dont have the old price list any more when they were listed that way..

The other interesting point is the Tangerines i see from importers these days look nothing like the pinkowski variant that was around 10 years ago, they seem to be closer to an orange colour now compared to the pinks that were developed back then, so are they the same fish ???????????

[aussiem]

John they are hybrids They first came in as obs.I had them and paid a fortune for them when first available along with John Reeves etc They were boofy in the head and did not keep the brilliant colours as the parents did

I spoke to Ad Konings and he assured me they were definately hybrid.If as Mark suggests read the mile long posts for and against on the pcf,This argument has been around for years

[aussiem]

Sorry I meant as suggested by Mattrox

[mattrox]

This argument has been around for years

But this info has not been widely known.... and I'm posting info from: http://ozfishforsale.com.au/forum/index.ph...pic,1900.0.html

This raises questions that need adequate explanations.

I have dug up 2 papers on genetics. The thrust of the matter is this:

In mbuna XY is not the only sex determining factor. There are also W and Z chromosomes which determine sex. In this case ZZ is male and WZ is female. W is dominant over Z and Y. In mbuna it is possible to have YYZW and have a female fish and XYZZ and be a male.

The OB gene is linked to the W chromosome and is dominant. One of the papers postulates that OB males are genetically female due to the W, but other factors allow the male genetics to be expressed. The OB characterisitc is linked to 5 genes on the W chromosome. The OB gene can be linked to a common ancestral mbuna in Lake Malawi and is not linked to the blotched morph of Neochromis from in Lake Victoria. Also, the WZ chromosomes are not present in peacocks.

It would seem that a hybridisation to cause the W chromosome to shift over to peacocks would take the OB gene with it.

A simple genetic test to see if OB peacocks have the W chromosome and mbuna OB genetic markers would be conclusive.

http://www.genetics.org/content/186/2/629.abstract

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5955/998.short

Why is the W and Z chromosome so important in this discussion of OB Peacocks?

Lets recap the important facts.

1. In mbuna there is another set of chromosomes, W and Z that determine sex.

2. Presence of the W chromosome determines the sex as female.

3. The OB genes in mbuna are only found on the W chromosome and is dominant.

4. Peacocks don't have the W/Z chromosome pair.

The story goes that OB zebras were produced from a male peacock and female zebra. Traditional genetics with the X/Y sex chromosomes cannot adequately explain this.

However, with a chromosome seperate to the X and Y chromosome that can pass on the OB gene, the original story of the OB peacock's creation can be more easily explained. It also means a DNA test would answer the question. This is because the OB gene is on the W chromosome and unique to mbuna.

I have done some modelling of the hybrid situation made some assumptions.

First we have a female OB zebra I will look at the XY/ZW female although this model will work with XX/ZW females as well.

Lets say we have a male peacock XY chromosomes, there must be a pair of chromosomes corresponding to the mbuna chromosomes Z and W but does not have the genetic modification to change sex like the W chromosome has. I will call this pair A in my model. My hypothetical peacock has genome XY/AA.

With this combination of parents these are the possible outcomes including repeats

XX/AZ female? non-OB_______XX/AW female OB______XY/AZ male non-OB ________XY/AW ? OB

XX/AZ female? non-OB_______XX/AW female OB______XY/AZ male non-OB________XY/AW ? OB

XY/AZ male non-OB________XY/AW ? OB___________YY/AZ can't develop ?________YY/AW can't develop ?

XY/AZ male non-OB________XY/AW ? OB___________YY/AZ can't develop ?________YY/AW can't develop ?

Assumptions: YY fish can't develop beyond embryo stage because there is not enough genetic information on just the Y chromosome for development to continue.

For this lineage to continue MUST ASSUME assume that the "? OB fish" are male due to the Y chromosome because the W effect on peacocks is unknown. If all the OB fish were female then the OB peacock could not be continued to develop to where it is today, with the near 100% male peacocks from these aquarium bred strains being OB.

Hypothetically, crossing the XY/AW and XX/AW fish would produce some XX/WW and some XY/WW fish eliminating the Z chromosome. (In mbuna ZZ is required for "male".) It is these fish that would have to be used to further develop the OB Peacock.

If the W chromosome does have an effect on sex, Male OB peacocks would be rare. Remember male OB mbuna have the W chromosome but other factors are at work to determine sex and OB males occur at a lower rate. It would be very hard to maintain the aquarium strain with very few males.

If there is no effect of the W chromosome in the Peacock crosses, then the male to female ratios would be near 1:1.

Conclusion

The big assumption is that the W does not determine sex when transfered to the Peacock genome. The article says that the OB genes are inextricably linked to the W chromosome. The situation is very complex and more data needs to be collected. A genetic test for the 5 genes involved must be done to clarify.

A mutation on a gene associated with the leucistic trait seems just as viable alternative.

[mattrox]

I am Posting what Oliver from Aquotix has put on PCS in this link:

http://www.perthcichlid.com.au/forum/index...mp;#entry217649

This is due to the effect that the Y chromosome has on the ability of the OB gene on the X chromosome to be effective phenotypically - it is a genetic phenomenon, there are more things at play than just one gene and two chromosomes..... the strength of other genes/hormones/diet etc can affect the response to genes (some people are genetically inclined to get a particular cancer due to a lack of one particular protein that that gene has control over - but not every person that carries that gene will get that cancer....)

Well I was half right, but quite wrong....

After information I got from Mattrox on Ozfishforsale, I have read two scientific papers linked below....

http://www.genetics.org/content/186/2/629.abstract

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5955/998.short

and this is what I wrote:

QUOTE

Ok, I have read the two articles (thanks Matt) the one from "Science" and the one from "GSA".

Yes there seem to be several genes on the Tetradon chromosome 11 (W) that have an effect on OB

After reading both articles, (would still like to get a hold of the paper from "Molecular Biology' journal - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046...3.01920.x/full) I can summarise what I can understand from it:

In several animals, such as some birds, amphibians and some fish, there is more than just XY chromosomes that determine Sex (XX=female, XY=male)... in some animals, there are what they call sex antagonist chromosomes... these are chromosomes with genes that affect the survivability/breeding selection or similar in a species. These chromosomes are currently labelled as W and Z (where W=female and Z=male). So in XY/ZZ and in XY/ZW genotypes, the first genotype develops as male, while the second develops as female despite its Y. XX/ZZ are normal looking males, and XX/ZW are OB females. But in some species like the blueberry zebra, the Y still has some affect on its sex, and therefore, even though genotypically a female due to the W chomosome trumping the Y, the Y seems to hold its own to a fair degree and you get a mix of OB and the blue body sheen seen in normal males but these males in the wild tend not to get to breed because they do not look right to the females - "However, we have not observed OB homozygous individuals in natural populations (0 of 199 wild OB individuals), which suggests that OB males have low mating success.." In the majority of cases, when W trumps Y, sex antagonism can cause a transition from an XY to a ZW sex-determination system.

It is known (due to all the OB mbuna being female bar a few semi/pseudo-males) the W chomosome contains the OB trait. And W trumps Y. So if the marble peacock has a W chromosome with these OB genes that it got from a mbuna, then all the OB phenotypes would be female, and all the males will look normal (bar maybe the odd semi/pseudo-male).

I then read a bit more, and said this:

QUOTE

I just read the abstract from Ad Konings link:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111...0871.x/abstract

"We found that many of these species have a male heterogametic (XY) system on linkage group 7. Some species also segregate for a female heterogametic (ZW) system on linkage group 5 that is coincident with a dominant orange-blotch (OB) color pattern in females. The ZW system is epistatically dominant to the XY system when both are segregating within a family."

without getting the full article here, I am assuming that Ad pointed out that the peacock used in this paper did not have the ZW system (this paper is not involved in the OB gene - just the XY / ZW sex discriminating systems of cichlids in Lake Malawi) which carries the OB gene in mbuna... this therefore shows that the OB gene in peacocks is located on another chromosome, or different part, and this chromosome has no sex antagonistic features.

I also note, that in Lake Victoria, the OB gene there is located in such a different chromosome - "suggesting an independent evolutionary origin for the Victorian OB-like phenotype"... something that I believe can happen to the marble peacock, given the smaller gene pool in captivity....

So Matt - you are brilliant..... Thanks for the links and the full articles.

So Basically, if the OB gene in marble peacocks was taken from a mbuna, then this would be on the 'W' chromosome, which would therefore demonstrate only OB females with normally coloured males. But we have both males and females showing OB in 99%+ of offspring (not currently possible with mbuna) so the OB gene is linked on a different part of, or different chromosome... similar to the lake Victorian cichlids and other fish.....

[Skippy]

The Tangerine Peacock was developed in Sydney by Henry and Elaine Pinkowski, and called Pink Peacocks at the time, from a recessive gene from Aulonocara mbenji, and in the early years it had “throw-backs” of the A.mbenji in the progeny, but over a number of years the Tangerine colour has become more fixed and is in fact an Aulonocara species “tangerine”.

Does anyone know Henry and Elaine Pinkowski?

[fishdance]

Does anyone know Henry and Elaine Pinkowski?

I have met Henry a couple of times but have not seen him for years. I have always called his fish Pinkowski peacocks after meeting him.

I've always thought OB peacocks were hybrids, just like jacobfribergi. Didn't realise some people actually thought they were pure.

[mattrox]

Not pure, as any line bred fish is not "pure" as new genes have formed due to mutations.

Jacobfribergi aren't hybrid either, line bred. Even if they are crossed with a different location varient they are not hybrid..... this is how they bred discus. Same species, different colour variant.

For OB peacocks to give 100% OB fry with a 50% male-female ratio and be hybrid, they would have to be develped from a strain of mbuna that gives 100% OB fry with 50% male female ratio. This would indicate the W chromosome has lost it's ability to trump the Y.

The blueberry zebra has been put up as a source of these conditions.

My interest in this is partially genetics and partially to approach a debate scientifically to find facts and settle the matter. Opinion and anecdotes only take you so far and give clues to work on.

[mattrox]

Thinking out loud,

the W chromosome has the Orange and White colours associated with it too. Cf. M. estherae and white morph of M. callainos.

Golden peacocks, White knights anyone? :-p

[Skippy]

Does anyone know Henry and Elaine Pinkowski?

I have met Henry a couple of times but have not seen him for years. I have always called his fish Pinkowski peacocks after meeting him.

I've always thought OB peacocks were hybrids, just like jacobfribergi. Didn't realise some people actually thought they were pure.

Thanks, I was curious to know if they actually exist or just someone's creation to legitimise Tangerine peacocks.

[mattrox]

All fish are legitimate. It's just one's opinions about breeding practises that makes them judge.

Why can't we just accept that there is an ornamental hobby, that at times breeds monstrosities and oddities and let each to their own?

[johns]

Does anyone know Henry and Elaine Pinkowski?

I have met Henry a couple of times but have not seen him for years. I have always called his fish Pinkowski peacocks after meeting him.

I've always thought OB peacocks were hybrids, just like jacobfribergi. Didn't realise some people actually thought they were pure.

Thanks, I was curious to know if they actually exist or just someone's creation to legitimise Tangerine peacocks.

I have met Henry And Elaine Pinkowski back in the 80's and had the pleasure of spending some time in their fishroom back then. i did come home with some pinkowski peacocks as they were known back then and these were a stunning fish.

I would love to know if he is still around as I think it would be good if we could get him to give a talk on his peacocks at the NSWCS

Cheers John

[johns]

I think that if its not seen in the lake then it doesn't always mean that it is a hybrid it can be a line bred species like the pinkowski peacock was in the 80's. If we look at Marble varieties then where did the Bristlenose come from that we all seem to accept without question. Also we could look at White Knights etc.. there would be a few to list I think so if we start to question just one fish and say it cannot be sold because of X we then need to have our facts right 1st I think.

This is only my opinion and I do Not condone the Hybridisation of any fish, but we seem to accept this in other pets we keep go figure.

Johns

[jrod]

Well if you want to get real technical most cichlids are hybrid/ crossbread. A long long time ago there would have been a few species. But cichlids have forever evolved and crossed to become what they are today. But again that could be said about everything dogs, cats, humans hahahahaha

[E4G13M4N]

Well if you want to get real technical most cichlids are hybrid/ crossbread. A long long time ago there would have been a few species. But cichlids have forever evolved and crossed to become what they are today. But again that could be said about everything dogs, cats, humans hahahahaha

The only crossbread i have seen are hot cross buns

As for dogs cats and humans no such thing as a hybrid there either as they are from the same species

now a mule on the other hand may have some merit as a hybrid and im not talking the human kind either

[jrod]

Well if you want to get real technical most cichlids are hybrid/ crossbread. A long long time ago there would have been a few species. But cichlids have forever evolved and crossed to become what they are today. But again that could be said about everything dogs, cats, humans hahahahaha

The only crossbread i have seen are hot cross buns

As for dogs cats and humans no such thing as a hybrid there either as they are from the same species

now a mule on the other hand may have some merit as a hybrid and im not talking the human kind either

My bad on the spelling *crossbred*

I'm pretty sure there are hybrid/crossbred dogs and cats.

[Josh]

hybrid....no, cross bred.....yes (on the cat dog thing)

The marble peacock to me has always been a hybrid. In the same class as discus and angels I guess. Hiding amongst us in plain sight.

I also don't believe that hybridisation happens that often in the wild. Things don't need to hybridise to evolve

[jrod]

Then what's a liger. I'd call that a hybrid cat

[shon982]

Hybridization doesn't occur in the wild at all, it never has...

Liger is cross between two species true, but it was intentional

just like flowerhorns