removal of fish species from Noxious Fish List

[riversideaquari]

Dear All, I am emailing this information to all concerned aquarists who keep, in the main, cichlids and other large fish species. Currently, OFMIG and the TWG have been given a list of 7 fish species that were returned by the NSW Fisheries to OFMIG and TWG to be further included in the Blue and Yellow lists currently created by TWG.

OFMIG/TWG will not list these 7 species, which could develop to many more than 7 species during this whole consultation process somewhere down the track, and no amount of persusion on my behalf (out of session) has done anything to rectify this situation.

OFMIG/TWG state that their operating procedures are one of consultation and communication. Well, this consultation is BIASED in their favour, as when they wanted 2 species removed from Tranche 1 of the National Noxious List, they were removed immediately, BUT, when Industry/Hobby wants the 7 species returned by State jurisdictions added back onto the blue and yellow lists from which they came, as they have already been through the rapid risk assessment once, the OFMIG/TWG simply and blatantly ignore our requests.

This communication therefore becomes DICTATORIAL, as it is "do as we say, not do as we do".

These 7 species are just the first lot of species that have been sent back to OFMIG/TWG, as there will be many others that will be treated likewise, as the blue and yellow species list get looked into at some later stage. There currently is no "level playing field" between Industry/Hobby and these bureacrats.

All people reading this post should send off their own email to all the OFMIG/TWG members listed below asking them to include all these 7 species onto the blue and yellow list. The 7 species are Ctenolucius hujeta, Chitala blancii, Chitala ornata, Perrunichthys perruno, Leiarius spp, Arapaima gigas and Atractosteus spatula. These fish are the commencement of the species that will "blossum" at a later date when the blue and yellow list are looked at, so don't think it is about species you don't currently keep, because down the track it will represent species that you do keep.

The email addresses of the OFMIG/TWG members that you need to send your email to, MADE OUT IN YOUR OWN WORDS, and as hard as you like, as these people need to be aware of your interests in this very very serious matter. Failure to do anything will mean you will ALL have many more restrictions placed onto your Hobby. They are as follows:

Alex-McNee@grapevine.com.au

Melissa.Walker@dpi.nsw.gov.au

Bill.Bardsley@fish.wa.gov.au

Bernadette.Oakes@environment.gov,au

Mideandron@virtual.net.au

Rachael.Davies@nt.gov.au

Tim.Farrell@ifs.tas.gov.au

John.Robertson@deedi.qld.gov.au

Anna.Batteste@dpi.vic.gov.au

Ramesh.Perrera@biosecurity.gov.au

Jdiggle@ifs.tas.gov.au

Zafer.Safer@deedi.qld.gov.au

Benjamin.Bowman@dpi.vic.gov.au

Ainslie.Brown@aqis.gov.au

cichlid1@tpg.com.au

heidi.alleway@sa.gov.au

Please, for the sake of the species you hold, and the likelihood that matters coming out of OFMIG and TWG will affect your hobby and the Industry as a whole, you have to send off your email to all the above listed people to try and prevent such matters from occurring and to inform those people that we will not be taken lightly when it comes to the fishes we all keep, regards Norm.

[Citypainter]

The 7 species are

Ctenolucius hujeta= Fresh water Barracooda

Chitala blancii = Royal knife fish

Chitala ornata = Clown Knife fish

Perrunichthys perruno = Perruno catfish

Leiarius spp, Catfish in the Pictus family not sure but maybe "Painted Catfish" is the common name.

Arapaima gigas = Giant arapaima

Atractosteus spatula = Aligator gar

I can understand where they are coming from.

You wouldn't want any idiot with money to just be able to buy these fish.

I think if you can buy these fish you should have a licensing system and proof that you can house and manage these fish. Also you should have to prove where it has gone by only being able to sell to other licensed people and if the fish dies you should have to prove it.

If these fish get in our waterways they will decimate without any doubt Australian waterways.

[CThompson]

I can understand where they are coming from.

You wouldn't want any idiot with money to just be able to buy these fish.

I think if you can buy these fish you should have a licensing system and proof that you can house and manage these fish. Also you should have to prove where it has gone by only being able to sell to other licensed people and if the fish dies you should have to prove it.

If these fish get in our waterways they will decimate without any doubt Australian waterways.

Prohibition doesn't work. For such predators a licensing situation, such as with reptiles, maybe stronger, would be a better way to go than banning and making their keeping illegal.

[riversideaquari]

The 7 species are

Ctenolucius hujeta= Fresh water Barracooda

Chitala blancii = Royal knife fish

Chitala ornata = Clown Knife fish

Perrunichthys perruno = Perruno catfish

Leiarius spp, Catfish in the Pictus family not sure but maybe "Painted Catfish" is the common name.

Arapaima gigas = Giant arapaima

Atractosteus spatula = Aligator gar

I can understand where they are coming from.

You wouldn't want any idiot with money to just be able to buy these fish.

I think if you can buy these fish you should have a licensing system and proof that you can house and manage these fish. Also you should have to prove where it has gone by only being able to sell to other licensed people and if the fish dies you should have to prove it.

If these fish get in our waterways they will decimate without any doubt Australian waterways.

Dear Citypainter, You don't know seem to know a lot about fish. The species in question would not survive in the wayerways south of Brisbane due to a number of factors the most important is warmth, which they will not get in Southern States. Sure they will survive in Northern Q'ld and N.T, but at the prices that some of these species fetch, the person owning them can sell them to shops or other interested aquarists for a much better price than to "dump" them into the wild. Besides how many people north of Brisbane would own such animals that they would dump such animals into the wild rather than to apply for a permit to keep them, if one should come available. This will depend on the outcomes of OFMIG deliberations, which at present time is "do nothing, but ban these fish". The only reason they may get dumped, is because of these idiots on OFMIG who wants to ban them and possibly declare them as NOXIOUS. Then they may get dumped.

Species like these are fine when kept in aquariums. They pose problems in some cases if someone "dumps" them, and as I said before this would not occur if the fish were allowed to be kept on a permit system for the life of the animal, which is the way I and others Industry/Hobby people have been approaching this issue. However, the OFMIG and TWG Government members are refusing to budge at present on this issue, rather, they are endeavouring to place "control options" on these and other species to come, mainly Cichlids and the like. So, don't think it will stop with just these 7 species. When they start to discuss the Blue and Yellow lists of several hundred species there will be plenty of other cichlids in the main that they will want to control. How that will occur is anybody's guess at the moment.

So, please keep looking at this forum for updates as they come along, and you will soon realise what damage OFMIG is going to do to our fish keeping hobby/industry if they get their way.regards Norm.

[dobbin4]

Gee Norm!!!!!!!!!!!, Your going to upset some people on here and not gain the support you need with comments like that.

Dave has kept this type of fish for years and would know a LOT about them, so your way off the mark with that comment.

I don't agree with your comment, The only reason they may get dumped, is because of these idiots on OFMIG who wants to ban them and possibly declare them as NOXIOUS. Then they may get dumped.

Explain why there is heaps of fish( cichlids) in the waterways now up north if this were true.

While i know what your meaning & members on here need to support this we also need to stick together.

John

[aqua84]

is it not possible for a species to adapt over a length of time?

australia has large floods which can carry fish vast distances, you wouldent need many to colonise a new site.

an introduced fish breeds in the warmer months, its offspring could be carried away in flood waters and pop up all across the country.

gambusia had the chance to stuff everything up, whos to say other fish cant do the same. theres no way you could be certain other fish cant do the same. i doubt there has been any significant tests done with arapiama? lol, let the listed fish above breed up north and see what happens, all you need is someone breeding them in a dam and then a 1 in 100 year flood comes along, next minute you got 1000's of them in rivers.

the price of these fish has nothing to do with it, if someone wants to spend a few grand and make 50x there start price why wouldent they risk it in a dam? buy some adults throw them in a dam and wait for them to breed, could lose 5k from the parents being eaten by a bird etc, could make 50k on the sell-able juvies? good gamble i think, better than the pokies

they also said the cane toad couldn't survive in colder climates, its just popped up in sutherland...

[Citypainter]

Thank John.

I couldn't have said it better my self.

Norm you may work in that industry but I have an interest in fish and fishing and have done both for over 35 years.

As for foriegn fish in our waterways we have Eartheaters populating northern NSW waterways

Tilapia are multiplying in Queensland.

And God forbid if the Giant Arapaima got into our waterways. They can breath air with thier specialised gland and move across land to migrate and populate other waterways.

They are taking over American waterways as we speak.

[japes]

I agree with Norm, these new species pose much less of a risk due to their price and demand than regular species like..

As for foriegn fish in our waterways we have Eartheaters populating northern NSW waterways

'Geophagus' brasiliensis, which in my opinion should not be classified as an Eartheater, as possible (and unnecessary) blanket restrictions all Eartheaters or the Geophagus genus could be a result of an incorrectly classified fish that breeds like Convicts, doesn't sell, and has been dumped into waterways throughout Eastern Australia.

[Citypainter]

This is a hard subject with no easy answers.

People will always dump fish into waterways.

They get too big for their aquariums and they think it is okay to dump them and set them free.

Its not just cheap fish.

Brasiliensis were not alwys cheap.

They were an expensive fish back in the eighties.

Prices drop and rise.

I agree they shouldn't be put under the banner of Eartheater.

They are more like A. rivulatus

But apparantly I don't know much about fish.

Licensing is a measure that would be better than banning.

It can be abused of course but it is a start.

Reptile keepers require a license to keep snakes and trade in them.

Why not do the same for certain species of fish.

[CThompson]

Dear Citypainter, You don't know seem to know a lot about fish.

Gosh Norm, I can see why they kicked you out

I would dare say if it came to a battle of knowledge, you'd knock me and most on these pages for a six, but you won't solicit support or motivate individuals into writing to your list with that kind of wording.

Regarding the comments that people won't dump fish because of their cost; what's expensive to one is not to another, cost is only relative, and if a fish is legal to bring into Adelaide, there is nothing stopping it being dumped in a tropical river somewhere after 10 years and five owners have carried it far enough north.

While i know what your meaning & members on here need to support this we also need to stick together.

[riversideaquari]

Gee Norm!!!!!!!!!!!, Your going to upset some people on here and not gain the support you need with comments like that.

Dave has kept this type of fish for years and would know a LOT about them, so your way off the mark with that comment.

I don't agree with your comment, The only reason they may get dumped, is because of these idiots on OFMIG who wants to ban them and possibly declare them as NOXIOUS. Then they may get dumped.

Explain why there is heaps of fish( cichlids) in the waterways now up north if this were true.

While i know what your meaning & members on here need to support this we also need to stick together.

John

Dear John, I agree with your last comment, and I"m sorry if I sounded a little crass, but I meant well, and I need to get people to understand that these matters from OFMIG are very serious indeed. For your records there are feral populations of Red Devils in Townsville in the Ross River that are expanding their range, Oscars, Convicts, Green Severums, G.braziliensis, Firemouths, have been released in Cairns, Red Forrest Jewels breeding in creeks in Cairns and various Oreochromis mainly mossambicus, Jack Dempseys, and a number of other species have been released in far north Queensland, in fact I will dig out the list of ornamentals that have been released and are breeding and post it here later on when I get the time, maybe today, so this is not good on behalf of Industry/Hobby. OFMIG look at these things and blame all these on our Industry/Hobby, most of which is correct. However, they do not look at the dangers being done by stocking agencies and land-holders and the like that translocate native and non-native species all over the place, causing heaps of damage to indigenous species both aquatic and amphibious (frogs etc), so the emphasis is not exactly uniform in their control options, as Aquaculture species get away with far more leniency when it comes to introductions which are not, I repeat NOT, had any "precautionary principle" applied to their fish, BUT OfMIG has applied it to all of our ornamental finfish species., regards Norm.

[cpfc]

Some facts on what species have escaped, numbers and impact would be good.

[Rod54]

Seems to me.....Larger/aggressive cichlids are the problem

Mum takes kids to the fish shop.....they chose the fish they like the look of....with no knowledge of it's eventually size/aggression

It grows rapidly and eats everything in the tank.....the shop doen't want it back ....so they throw it into the local creek

No use blaming Government for trying to solve a problem.....or crying that others can damage the environment why can't I!!!

It is a problem the Industry needs to address.....those that profit from it.....but they don't care(AI and Bayfish the 2 major importers are now run by accountants not ex-hobbyists) ......they can sell balloon mollies instead!!

Personally..... banning these species may be the only alternative.....because you can't ban stupidity or ignorance!

Best we can Hope for is licencing so these fish don't get into the hands of those who have no knowledge!!

[Ducksta]

I think the problem is that too many individual groups want to have it their way and make no concessions to fair points from outside.

Some examples - koi and goldfish are destroying rivers in tropical and cooler regions. "Ornamental" groups don't want them black listed because they generate a bulk of income. And as demonstrated plenty of times, other ornamental species are able to adapt well outside their "natural" environment. This does not exclude all of Australia south of Brisbane, and is not restricted to certain groups of fish (ie. tankbusters, cichlids, catfish - but extends in to infestations of sword tails and platy's that will winter comfortably across most of Australia)

Trout are destroying stocks of natives. They are not only present already but are continually stocked in to both land locked impoundments and systems that are open to fish migration. Fishing groups don't want trout stocking stopped because it generates to much income.

"Green" groups want to ban everything, without any consultation at all, or any alternatives provided.

As someone who enjoys both keeping aquariums, and fishing for native species, I would just like one sensible group to take charge.

[aqua84]

I think the problem is that too many individual groups want to have it their way and make no concessions to fair points from outside.

Some examples - koi and goldfish are destroying rivers in tropical and cooler regions. "Ornamental" groups don't want them black listed because they generate a bulk of income. And as demonstrated plenty of times, other ornamental species are able to adapt well outside their "natural" environment. This does not exclude all of Australia south of Brisbane, and is not restricted to certain groups of fish (ie. tankbusters, cichlids, catfish - but extends in to infestations of sword tails and platy's that will winter comfortably across most of Australia)

Trout are destroying stocks of natives. They are not only present already but are continually stocked in to both land locked impoundments and systems that are open to fish migration. Fishing groups don't want trout stocking stopped because it generates to much income.

"Green" groups want to ban everything, without any consultation at all, or any alternatives provided.

As someone who enjoys both keeping aquariums, and fishing for native species, I would just like one sensible group to take charge.

perfectly said

[Citypainter]

Unfortunately I don't think any of the people involved represent what I believe.

I require a balance.

If I owned an Aqurium I would be wanting to protect it too.

Thats probably why so many have closed down lately.

I might be wrong but I thought I seen an advert for the sale of Campsie Aqurium as well.

Maybe on pet link.

Yet our waterways are littered with carp. Millions of tons of destructive carp.

Some people pay thousands of dollrs for carp and other a few cents

The fresh water suburban creeks are full of Gambusia.

Tilapia are threatening fish in Cairns and Port Douglous.

There are 100's of species out there because careless people here in Australia.

I think there is fair argument to ban some fish. especialy the Giant arapaima

And really who has room for an Aligator Gar or a blue shark.

What are you going to do with a Fresh water Barracooda when it is full grown and red belly Pacu and red tailed catfish.

If you are to buy these fish you should need to prove that you can house and care for these fish.

And when you wish to sell these fish they should be sold to other people that can prove the same thing.

Reptile keepers are licensed.

Why not do the same for these extreme fish.

[aqua84]

licenses are a good idea for monster fish but eventually it will also include electric yellows and guppys etc

all these fish are just as bad as each other in there own way.

buy a guppy, cost you $5 then they hit you up for a "license" to keep such a crazy animal $10 a year lol.

then if you want to keep a monster fish, well hang on...your special... $500 a year please.

it will become a joke and another killed hobby.

its all a grab for money in my opinion, theres no such thing as a free license.

i want to rant on but its useless.

Unfortunately I don't think any of the people involved represent what I believe.

I require a balance.

If I owned an Aqurium I would be wanting to protect it too.

Thats probably why so many have closed down lately.

I might be wrong but I thought I seen an advert for the sale of Campsie Aqurium as well.

Maybe on pet link.

Yet our waterways are littered with carp. Millions of tons of destructive carp.

Some people pay thousands of dollrs for carp and other a few cents

The fresh water suburban creeks are full of Gambusia.

Tilapia are threatening fish in Cairns and Port Douglous.

There are 100's of species out there because careless people here in Australia.

I think there is fair argument to ban some fish. especialy the Giant arapaima

And really who has room for an Aligator Gar or a blue shark.

What are you going to do with a Fresh water Barracooda when it is full grown and red belly Pacu and red tailed catfish.

If you are to buy these fish you should need to prove that you can house and care for these fish.

And when you wish to sell these fish they should be sold to other people that can prove the same thing.

Reptile keepers are licensed.

Why not do the same for these extreme fish.

[Citypainter]

Hi aqua84.

I can see where you are coming from.

It seems there is no straight answer.

A lot of people would disagree with me and thats ok but I think some species should be banned.

Trouble is do the authorites in power have the ability to pick which ones and where and when to stop banning fish imports?

I know that in hindsight it is too late with some species, on land and in water.

[aqua84]

dont get me wrong, i dont want to see anything disappear i think it would be a great loss.

i dont think there will be any solution that everyone will agree on.

i also do alot of fishing and collecting of native fish and see the damage done by non native species. i hate going to spots i have been to as a kid and finding nothing but gambusia or koi carp or platys it kills me to know what used to be there is now gone. even the frogs i used to find are completely gone.

i enjoy every aspect of this hobby and can see points from both sides of the fence.

i just hope the hobby doesnt get killed.

cheers

pete.

[benno]

I agree with city painter, what does it matter just about every single fresh waterway here in SA are chock a bloc with carp, even if they were released here many cichlids if not all would not survive a winter here. Surely the carp have done more damage already than any cichlids could ever do here. Almost forgot about the bloody redfin as well, those little nasties are more aggressive than any cichlid, we target them fishing in the resivoirs here in SA on lures made for catching BIG snapper, theres millions of em too.