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HELP with macrop and gold comp..


LithoMan
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Hi all

I have 4 macrops 1 or 2 there mouths look funny i am not sure it it is normal or they are just bad bloodline there mouths look like BART SIMPSON LIPS lol if you get what i mean i tried taking a few photo's also i noticed one of my gold comps looking weird ....instead of ski jump style nose it looks like it has yawned and stayed that way not gone back look at pick and you will know what i mean....

thanks in advance for advice...maybe it will just go back into place but just wondering if anyone has ever experienced this...

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now the macrop ndole bay

i think this is normal but the others have weird lookling mouths and lips

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sorry for the bad pics will try get better ones..

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has like a "U" shape near its mouth that gives it a weird look..

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Hi Litho

the Macrops are deformed and I recommend you return them for a refund

or contact the supplier if they were an online purchase to arrange credit

there use to be Brichardi getting around with the same problem, hopefully

they have gone from the hobby

the Comps have over stretched the mouth membrane and it isn't normally

reversable (pretty stressful on the fish to try and fold it back in place) this

is common problem with Alto's and some Lamp's, it doesn't effect the fish

other than cosmetically

Chris

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The nose on the gold comp will probably not go back, you can see it is already starting to get a small horn. This will probably only get worse with time. Its a pretty common thing with the altos.

Agree with Mike on the macrops, a pretty obvious issue with them.

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so i cant just push his nose back lol was joke... if by anychance he or she grows up and breeds wont effect bloodline?

and for the macrops i will make sure they will not be used for breeding ...does the 1st picture of macrop look good or bad ?i mean does that look normal?

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Hey mate, yeah with the comps, it's a common issue due to the in-breeding that has been happening. It's NOT a genetic deformity but a genetic weakness in the cartilage. Try to source some that haven't had this and I spent a fair while perfecting my breeders and then had to sell it all. Grant (parkesg) has some of my gold comp fry and if you search the photo forums for my fish, you will definitely see what gold comps should look like.

It's important that we continue to address these things and breed with the strengths in fish. Otherwise, all our fish would end up with this weakness. And mate....those macrops are shocking..I too would have culled them. If you are ever looking to get fish, spend ten minutes on the web! It will save a craP load of heartaches and headaches! :lol2:

Forgot to say that part of my massive collection of gold comps came from Sorroz (still in Sydney still I hope??) I used nearly every fish I got off him because they were awesome!

Edited by Chilli Powder
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Arj :raisehand:

wow the people you still meet on here :lol3:

still on the door at the VCS auctions mate ?

Kev still has the same line of Gold Comps going

Have you noticed if this problem has increased

and/or developed earlier as the pic appears to be

a young fish

Litho

what size are your Alto's in your pics , I'm

guessing about 5-6 cm

Chris

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Arj :raisehand:

wow the people you still meet on here :lol3:

still on the door at the VCS auctions mate ?

Kev still has the same line of Gold Comps going

Have you noticed if this problem has increased

and/or developed earlier as the pic appears to be

a young fish

Litho

what size are your Alto's in your pics , I'm

guessing about 5-6 cm

Chris

close to 5cm that one :)

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still on the door at the VCS auctions mate ?

:lol2: yeah mate, me and the A2FF crew always at the door making a nuisance of ourself and always being asked to be quiet! :lol3: The auctions are never the same without us! :thumbup:

with the issue with the altos, yeah, more and more of them are getting this "dislocation" if you want to call it that! About 6 years ago, I got down altos from reliable breeders across the country and at one stage had over 100 of them, then slowly selected my breeders! These days, most of the altos you see are pale and some don't even have the iridescent color on their lips or the high dorsal fin :shock:

If Kev has the same one going, then it's fantastic. I know he too had a couple of breeding pairs/colonies established at that time.

I kept three pairs with additional two females per tank in two 6x2x2 tanks. This worked really well for me and the fish were breeding all the time and very happy. Just used white rock to loosely block line of sight gave lots of in-out rock formations.

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Edited by Chilli Powder
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Arj they look the goods mate :thumb

I don't remember what generation Kev

is breeding from but I think he still has

some of the originals left and they áre

in retirement mode :p

I bought some Calvus off a guy from a

trading post add and he had the Comps

so we made a deal for the lot

that was way too many years back and

my alzheimers has kicked in ;)

Chris

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Hi Arj :raisehand:

Yep still have the same line breeding happily ..there is still one of my original breeders left and I only lost the others in the last year or so,the males were huge , I too suffer from old timers :lol3: but she must have been with me for at least 15 years and was a large adult when when purchased . Along with the fish Chris bought there were also some sourced from Dom at Bega

The current breeders are the same generation as the ones you had from me and are still breeding regularly and there are very few deformities in the fry which is usually a gill or twisted head out of the hundreds raised and I have not seen the jaw membrane problem in any ,including the young adults that are growing up as my next generation of breeders.

Lithoman

The macrops are truly shocking and are not even worth the tank space to keep them in,unfortunatly some breeders are still more interested in the $$$ rather then the quality..some fish will always get past with faults but all of them is a little hard to justify.

Kevin

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Lithoman,

If you do follow up where you got the macrops from, I'd suggest to the source that the fish not be breed, a 50% deformaty rate is not really acceptable. If the non-deformed fry are breed together I'd suspect you'd get even higher rates of deformaty in their fry.

Love those pics Arj :hug:

Cheers

Grant

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Hey mate, yeah with the comps, it's a common issue due to the in-breeding that has been happening. It's NOT a genetic deformity but a genetic weakness in the cartilage.

?What's the difference between a genetic deformity and a genetic weakness?

I've seen distended mouths on calvus, comps, leptosoma and nigrinnis over the times and think

a) the visible symptom is environmental, as in they've done something (like fighting or eating something too hard) to cause the distension, but

b) the predisposition to doing so is definately passed genetically so if a parent has this then the likelihood of a child developing it is increased.

If you have a fish showing such a trait you're better off no breeding from it, or if the available genepool is really restricted then at least cross it with an unrelated fish that doesn't show the "feature".

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Hey mate, yeah with the comps, it's a common issue due to the in-breeding that has been happening. It's NOT a genetic deformity but a genetic weakness in the cartilage.

?What's the difference between a genetic deformity and a genetic weakness?

I've seen distended mouths on calvus, comps, leptosoma and nigrinnis over the times and think

a) the visible symptom is environmental, as in they've done something (like fighting or eating something too hard) to cause the distension, but

b) the predisposition to doing so is definately passed genetically so if a parent has this then the likelihood of a child developing it is increased.

If you have a fish showing such a trait you're better off no breeding from it, or if the available genepool is really restricted then at least cross it with an unrelated fish that doesn't show the "feature".

I agree Laurie

There is no difference...

I dont think it makes a difference if the condition is acquired or genetic...we have such a limited gene pool here that we would be stupid to run the risk and breed from anything with any deformity. The last thing we want is to fix these deformities into the phenotype of our fish. I had some issues with kungwensis I got down from Queensland, they were ALL deformed as far as I was concerned with hooked mouths/faces (yep...20 off them). They all went to the aquarium in the sky, no way was I going to breed from them (and Ill NEVER buy from that breeder again)

Just cull them....

Mike

Edited by Noddy65
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Genetic deformity is a physical trait that can be passed on to each generation

but a physical deformity can be produced from water or food being substandard

so that the required trace elements, nutrition or even size, hardness and shape

of the food can contribute to incorrect deveopment of the fish while young

the olny way to determine what the problem is would be to change the pair around

with different opposites as a start, if the spawn raise with no deformities then the

problem is definitely genetic

If the deformities still come through then water chemistry needs to be reviewed

and continued test breeding would be required with different foods in each test case

not much chance if they knowingly selling this standard of fry :B

re the Alto membrane due to the natural hunting mechanism of enveloping their prey

usually juvenile cichlids in a similar fashion that Barra use the mouth is projected into

extension by the membrane, this can flex in the wrong direction when they try to

retract it causing the problem

I don't remember hearing of it happening when they yawn

maybe looking at food size might be a start especially if you are feeding pellets as

there is no flexibility in the food when they would move it in their mouth before swallowing

I like the way this thread has developed ito reasoning why this may be happening

Chris

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Hi Laurie,

I was talking to one of my friends doing gentic research in unit about this issue a while back and she told me that it is not a deformity in the first instance because the fish are not born that way. Unlike the macrops you see, the gold comps have a normal facial profile. The issue arises when they extend the jaw to either yawn or grab the food. She also said the weakness could be due to environmental factors such as water chemistry, diet and in-breeding. The best analogy she presented was that it was most like a dislocated shoulder/joint: where some people have stronger bones and cartilege compared to others. Again, diet & genetics play a role in this. :dntknw:

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