Genetics question

[Mattzilla]

Hi,

I am about to breed one of my blue angelfish with a veiltail angel to try and create some veiltail blues...

my question is what strain/colour of veiltail would be best to cross with the blue to maintain to blue colour of the fry? i know not all of the fry will be blue and/or veiltail so i want to maximize the potential number of blue veils by choosing the best partner.

i have the following veils to choose from: golden, silver, or koi marble

if there is another colour varient that would be best i can try to track that type down as well

so i was wondering if anyone knows what genes are mordominant, or what genes would produce the most number of quality blue colours.

thanks for your help

[Phenomena]

Not sure if it'll help:

http://theangelfishsociety.org/standards2.htm

[marrick2204]

Would you consider trying a domiant display Male with a less or inferier female?.

Only a thought.

cheers

Simon

[petshopdude]

sounds interseting, you may not end up getting any with the desire features. depending on how dominat the genes are.

it may take another generation of breeding, to get what u want. you may need to breed the offspring back to one of the original strain of veiltail or blues to get what u want. or even pair up 2 sets and cross the offspring from both lines to each other

[Mattzilla]

i definitely know that some line breeding will be needed to lock in any sort of trait that i'm looking for...

i'm just trying to decide the best varient to start with

popular consensus is to go with the silver varient so fingers crossed

thanks

[Simonauv]

Veiltail (V) is partially dominant (and just to clarify... when you mention veiltails are you talking about angels with really long flowing fins that hang down or angels with longer than normal tails that can still be held up by the fish? the later are usually called veiltails and the former are usually called superveils in terms of angel genetics) ... this means you'll get intermediate expression of the veiltail trait when put with standard tails (these are VERY beautiful fish in their own right as the effect of a single 'dose' of the veiltail gene serves to extend all the fins but retain the look of standard fins... very striking IMO). My understanding of blue is it is the result of fish being homozygous for stripelss at the stripeless locus (i.e SS). The stripeless gene (S) is dose-dependent (also partially dominant) so you will also get intermediate expression between striped and blushing (blue) that will look like faded or partial stripes (i.e. ghost)... you should also note that blue is the result of fish being homozygous for stripeless which is also the same as blushing and that the blue is due to the interaction of other modifying genes affecting the expression of the SS genotype and that blue is a line bred version of the blushing trait to eliminate other hues such as purple that you often get in blushing... if I was going to do this I would probably choose a blushing superveil of some kind to put with the blue because they are essentially the same (at the concerned loci) as the blues and then just line breed from there, selecting the most blue each time (and so accumulate or lose the required modifying genes to allow the blue to be expressed normally). You'll get angels with veils that are intermeidate between normal and superveiled. Then you'd select the best of these and inbreed them to try for fsh homozygous at the veiltail locus (i.e. VV = superveil). Silvers are striped at the stripless locus and so resulting crosses with silver (resulting in a genotype of S+) will be intermediate between stripless (blushing) and striped. They will also be intermediate between superveil and normal tailed (with a genotype of Vv) and again you'll need to choose the best of the progeny and inbreed them to try for fish homozygous at both the stripless (blushing) locus and the veiltail locus. The advantage of choosing the blushing variety over the silver variety for your initial cross would be that you are only selecting for one trait (veiltail) instead of two (veiltail AND stripless). I would avoid the gold and the koi as they are from different loci again that also affect the expression of striping (and can mask striping... eg gold (gg) removes the expression of stripes but does not remove the genes that cause striping... your gold may in fact be fully striped, zebra striped, or blushing (etc) under a gold colour overlay). Hope this makes sense

[ozarowana]

I believe the blue phenotype he is referring to isn't blushing. It's like the nice blue sheen you sometimes see in angels, but covers the whole body. They are usually silver angels but with heaps of blue sheen.

Matt I replied to this on the other forum.

[Simonauv]

Ok... I've not seen or heard of these. Only blue I've ever heard of is the blue caused by stripeless/blushing. I'd love to see a photo. Is this a line bred silver or is it another recently described gene (or gene series)? WOuld also like to see the other forum you refer to is it http://www.angelfishkisses.com/

[ozarowana]

Matt's blue angels

http://www.aceforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=45273

Similar to but not exactly the same as these

http://www.angelfishusa.net/shopcontent.asp?type=pinoyblue

Good genetics/phenotype website

http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/phenotype_library_2007/

I'm not sure on the genetics of it, but it isn't described anywhere I can find. So possibly a new locus.

The other forum is just an interstate one.

[Mattzilla]

Veiltail (V) is partially dominant (and just to clarify... when you mention veiltails are you talking about angels with really long flowing fins that hang down or angels with longer than normal tails that can still be held up by the fish? the later are usually called veiltails and the former are usually called superveils in terms of angel genetics) ... this means you'll get intermediate expression of the veiltail trait when put with standard tails (these are VERY beautiful fish in their own right as the effect of a single 'dose' of the veiltail gene serves to extend all the fins but retain the look of standard fins... very striking IMO). My understanding of blue is it is the result of fish being homozygous for stripelss at the stripeless locus (i.e SS). The stripeless gene (S) is dose-dependent (also partially dominant) so you will also get intermediate expression between striped and blushing (blue) that will look like faded or partial stripes (i.e. ghost)... you should also note that blue is the result of fish being homozygous for stripeless which is also the same as blushing and that the blue is due to the interaction of other modifying genes affecting the expression of the SS genotype and that blue is a line bred version of the blushing trait to eliminate other hues such as purple that you often get in blushing... if I was going to do this I would probably choose a blushing superveil of some kind to put with the blue because they are essentially the same (at the concerned loci) as the blues and then just line breed from there, selecting the most blue each time (and so accumulate or lose the required modifying genes to allow the blue to be expressed normally). You'll get angels with veils that are intermeidate between normal and superveiled. Then you'd select the best of these and inbreed them to try for fsh homozygous at the veiltail locus (i.e. VV = superveil). Silvers are striped at the stripless locus and so resulting crosses with silver (resulting in a genotype of S+) will be intermediate between stripless (blushing) and striped. They will also be intermediate between superveil and normal tailed (with a genotype of Vv) and again you'll need to choose the best of the progeny and inbreed them to try for fish homozygous at both the stripless (blushing) locus and the veiltail locus. The advantage of choosing the blushing variety over the silver variety for your initial cross would be that you are only selecting for one trait (veiltail) instead of two (veiltail AND stripless). I would avoid the gold and the koi as they are from different loci again that also affect the expression of striping (and can mask striping... eg gold (gg) removes the expression of stripes but does not remove the genes that cause striping... your gold may in fact be fully striped, zebra striped, or blushing (etc) under a gold colour overlay). Hope this makes sense

wow that's excellent info, thanks

i still need to read it a couple more times to fully understand it but it very interesting.

The veils i am talking about are superveils with a double dose of the veil gene ... yeah the fins to sag a little.

i agree that the Vv veils have stunning fins that hold their shape exactly. i have always prefered them but have recently taken a liking to the VV veils becuase some of them have fins that just seem to keep going.

I'll take some pics as soon as i can of the fish involved and post them so you know exactly what i'm talking about.

Ozarowana, thanks for your replies and posting links... your input is always appreciated

I do have a blushing blue but it is not a veiltail... i might put some feelers out and tru to find a blushing blue veil to cross

cheers and thanks again for your replies

[Simonauv]

Thanks for the links ot the photos... I remember seeing these photos... it didn't click they were from teh same person. They are lovely looking fish that's for sure.

I did some reading around last night and found reference to platinums (Pb) that were blue... is this what you are talkng about... looks similar and is very attrcative.