dexxl Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 i started a cichlid tank using my old discus tank. but for some reason, i have fish dying all the time. this morning one of the bigger hongi died.. i've had about 7 fish died since i started about 2 weeks ago. parameters are as such; water source - rainwater pH - original 6.5, i bought 'pH up' yesterday afternoon to boost it to 7.6 temperature - 26 constant filter - fluval 305 ammonia - not tested, but regular 80% water change (i got rainwater tanks i got no other use for the water...) food - sinking pellet for cichlids, cichlid flake, blood worm once a week, freeze dried black worm once a week. fish species (remaining) - 3 x dragon blood peacock, 3 x albino, 3 x hongi, 1 x convict, 6 peppermints, 1 orange spot catfish. there's also a big piece of wood in there, but that has been there for the last 8 months or so even when i had discus so i doubt there are parasites leeching from it. anything i'm missing? anyone know what's going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcloughlin2 Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Your water is going to be far to soft and the pH will therefore be very unstable. Bringing your pH from 6.5 - 7.6 in one day is more then enough to kill your fish too. 80% water changes are way to much. African cichlids only need weekly or twice weekly water changes of 20% or so to keep them happy. You also going to need to have a water changing drum where you can pre buffer the water to the desired levels rather then put the water in the tank and then add buffer raising the pH and hardness, shocking the fish. It sounds like your setup is perfect for discus but horrible for african cichlids. How large was the tank and did you cycle the tank before adding all those fish? You have heaps of fish so I'd hope it was a large tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexxl Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 tank is 200 litres, filter has been seeded and cycled since i had the discus. i followed the instructions on the 'pH up' where it says to mix half a teaspoon per 100 litres of water into a cup then pour into the tank. but having a water changing drum is definately a good idea i'll start doing. i'll stop doing large water changes as well, i guess good habit for discus, bad habit for cichlids. a habit none other, i'm sure i'll break easily since i only have to be lazier lol how come every keeps saying keeping and breed discus are the hardest fish? they're a walk in the park compared to these cichlids! all the fish are tiny right now from 3 - 5cm. once they start gfrowing to breeding age, i'll start separating them into individual colonies. so i guess this can be considered as a grow out tank. thanks for the help. i hope the pH shock doesn't kill anymore fish and i'll be more careful next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E4G13M4N Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Africans are one of the easiest fish to keep, like most fish they dont appreciate sudden changes and fluctuations. You will find them easy once the PH and hardness stabilises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citypainter Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Also the parasites that live in water tanks can cause things like white spot and other funguses once they are heated. Is there any scratching and or flashing in the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexxl Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 fish not scratching themselves, and i'm not sure what flashing means... i'm imagining random burst of lights somehow related to the fish's locomotion, but erhh that's silly.. i bought a pH test kit. i tested the pH to be 7.2 i'm a little disappointed since the instructions say to put half a teaspoon per 100l and i scooped out a large teaspoon since my tank is 200 litres. i'm not sure if i should put more in.. hmmm how long does it take for fish to die of 'shock'? i'm assuming that's immediate? cos i just had another one died this afternoon, when i corrected the pH 24 hours ago. sooo maybe it's not the pH... i'm back to being stumped.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJJ-Master Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Rainwater is very soft to begin with ( do you know what GH and KH is ?) . You need to raise the PH , KH and GH . I'd start by getting some crushed coral sand putting it in a filter bag and sticking it in your filter . As this dissolves it will harden up your water and make the PH more stable . PH may or may not be your problem , most store bought fish don't live in ideal parameters , if they've been plucked out of the lake that's different story but you've got hybrids so I doubt that's the case ... Your main concern should be stability and adjusting very slowly . Your fish that died today is probably from the abrupt change - It is not instantaneous death . Are the fish active ? Are they Gasping ? Are they eating ? Do they have any "odd" marking on them ? BTW get an Ammonia test kit - Of all the test kits it probably the most important to have . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexxl Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 thanks for the reply bjj-master i have a vague understanding of kH and gH affecting the stability of pH, i'll go look for some crushed coral sand tomorrow. or should i try calcium carbonate or baking soda? fish are very active no grasping at the surface eating well and no odd marking... i kinda wish there was 1 of those above syntoms tho, then i'll know what the problem is to fix it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJJ-Master Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I wouldn't bother adding sodium bi carb until you've added the coral grit (which is made of calcium carbonate ) as you'd be fighting an uphill battle maintaining the high ph that you desire until your water hardens up a bit , which won't be instantaneous after adding the grit rather a gradual "hardening" (BTW if you're adding it to your 304 try and find the coarsest coral grit/sand you can as it'll be less likely to find it way to and thus ruining your impeller). When you switched from discus to african did your filter ever stop running ? ( your bacteria colonies are pretty fragile , even if you simply stop the flow for a few hours they may die ) . It's not to they can't live together but your choice of fish is probably not ideal ie. african haps , african mbuna and an american should generally be only kept together with similar cichlids . The american will probably hassle the mbuna and the mbuna will hassle the haps . How is aggression in your tank ? It may not be the direct cause of death but stress does make fish more susceptible to things like , fungus , parasites and ... um ... poor water parameters . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexxl Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 filter never stopped running. I didn't do water changes inbetween either. i realise that only species from the same area should be kept. but they're so pretty... i'm like some bug drawn towards i shinning light, i can't help it! i have narrowed down to only afew fish that i want to keep tho. I found a breeder from the other forum, but haven't heard back yet. no agression in the tank. nothing more then jostling for space under the log. funniest thing is when my 2 year old boy comes close to the tank. they all seem to be in unison with each and hide under the log peacefully from my experience, raising or lower of pH is a quantitive figure of 10, so it did make some sense that i had to add more of the pH up solution. i'm thinking that i may add coral grit straight into the tank rather than in the filter. since it's job is to dissolve alkaline it should work in any area that has an acidic base right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fongyfong Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Dude i have never fed my cichlids worms before and iits not good idea to feed africans cichlids worms as it causes disease FOODS TO AVOID: Tubifex. This is a thin, red worm that lives in mud of rivers, and is usually collected from polluted rivers. By feeding Tubifex to your fish, you are exposing them to the diseases these worms may be carrying. Red Mosquito Larvae (a.k.a. blood worms). I have fed bloodworms to my fish without any known incidents; however, I know some authorities out there caution against them. Note, however, that I feed with these very light--only what they can consume in 30 seconds. Beef Heart. Fishes are unable to utilize fat from warm-blooded animals for energy use. As a result, these fats build up in the liver, and over time will result in degeneration of their liver. For this reason, meat from any warm-blooded animal, and especially beef heart, is bad for your fishes. Any food advertised for American cichlids. These foods are very dangerous for African cichlids because the two classes of fish have such different dietary needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fongyfong Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 .............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcloughlin2 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Worms are fine to be fed to african cichlids. The chance of disease is mimimal and not worth the stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Fish are fish and all have the same basic requirement for life. Africans are very hardy, but some of their basic requirements are different from Discus. Africans require hard alkaline water with a high KH (carbonate hardness). Discus require soft acidic. This difference is your major cause of death. All fish in tanks require water changes, if you want to do 80% per week that’s fine PROVIDED it’s a regular thing and the water you take out is = to the water you put in (pH, KH, temp). It is more usual to do 1/3 per week. Sydney tap water is already alkaline, but has zero KH (don't know about QLD), so while it is fine to put in coral sand or better yet lime stone stand to raise pH, you still must make sure the KH is around 180ppm. Rainwater will not be alkaline. Your simpliest rout if you want to maintain Africans is to use Seachem salts (or equivilant) and a KH buffer. A water change container where these can be pre added and dissolved (and heated if doing 80%) is a fantastic way of increasing your tanks Life Buffer. Don’t forget to use a water ager/conditioner to neutralise chlorine and chloramines if using tap water. “Aquarium keeping is an information hobby”, do your own internet research and check out wether or not all the fish you are keeping have the same water chemistry requirements. Having wood in an African tank will be promoting acidic water from the tannins it will be releasing. Will this help to maintain a high pH? Plecos species require wood in their diet so they are not an ideal combination with Africans (I'm sure people will argue with this). As others have mentioned, Africans have different dietary requirement to South American fish. Primarily due to their evolving in a less protein rich environment. Imagine as a person being on a very low fat diet for years then going to a restaurant and suddenly having a full fat meal . While it may taste great you’ll pay for it in the short and long term with your health and possibly death. Africans are evolved to have a low protein lifestyle, and will not handle the foods South American fish can. To keep it simple, feed New Life Spectrum (NLS) for cichlids (your local fish store will have it) and you will feed a complete dietary meal with the one dry food. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexxl Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 ok, pH in tank has been buffered to 7.8. two bags of calcium carbonate replaced activated carbon bags in the filter (approximate 1.3kgs of cal carb). AmmoniaAlert (seachem) in tank and reading safe levels. i expect another 1 or 2 deaths (just cos i'm so used to it now..) and hopefully it will be stable by then. wish me luck, thanks for all the good advice. oh and wood is stayin in the tank cos it's just too darn pretty. i'll take a picture of it one day and make you'all jealous it's seriously the coolest driftwood i've ever seen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colfish Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 ok, calcium carbonate replaced activated carbon bags in the filter how long had the carbon been in the filter ?? [just a thought] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexxl Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 about 8 months.. why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaholic Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 the carbon soaks up bad elements and then leaches them back into your tank. 8 months is way too long. dont use carbon again unless you want to remove meds. how often are your water tanks flushed through as water can go "off" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin4 Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Just pays to read up before you put your fish & $$$$'s to death You have all the advice you need above Just cant expect a fish that you most likely got from a tank 7.8 + Ph to live for long in that acid water, 6.5 to 7.6 Ph is a big jump, but ok if done over a whole day, better over a couple You have lifted the ph so you need to just hope they recover Hope you did it slowly ? Next fish you buy,, check the ph of water in the bag before adding to your water you will be surprised at what it may be Then you need to slowly bring the fish to the same as your water. Sometimes i take 3 hours to release new fish Have a good read up on your fish, you will save $$$$$$'s Heaps on the net Just do a search Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexxl Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 that's great advice dobbin thanks. do you i guess 'climatize' the fish in a separate bucket, or actually add your tank water into the bag, tie the bag up and let it flow in the tank? i keep getting told to let the bag float in the tank, i'm not sure why.. also do you have any reservations about disease that you could introduce into your tank from putting the water from another aquarium in? or am i just being paranoid... Just pays to read up before you put your fish & $$$$'s to death You have all the advice you need above Just cant expect a fish that you most likely got from a tank 7.8 + Ph to live for long in that acid water, 6.5 to 7.6 Ph is a big jump, but ok if done over a whole day, better over a couple You have lifted the ph so you need to just hope they recover Hope you did it slowly ? Next fish you buy,, check the ph of water in the bag before adding to your water you will be surprised at what it may be Then you need to slowly bring the fish to the same as your water. Sometimes i take 3 hours to release new fish Have a good read up on your fish, you will save $$$$$$'s Heaps on the net Just do a search Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Hey, To acclimatise a fish I usually: - Float the bag in the aquarium for around 10mins or so. (to get the water inside the bag close to the temp of the aquarium water slowly) - Syphon some tank water into a bucket (about a litre or so) - Release the fish and the water in the bag into the bucket. - Leave the fish in the bucket for a further 5-10mins - Net the fish out and put them in the aquarium - Empty the water from the bucket outside (never into the aquarium IMO) Cheers Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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