hobcas Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I currently have too much time on my hands whilst waiting on some glass drill bits to arrive so I have been planning my rack filtration so as when they arrive I can complete my newest rack of two 5 x 2 x 2's. I have read so many articles and changed the design several times and have now reached a point were I would like some opinions and advice on my latest design so as to help me make a final decision. Below is an image of one of my designs, your thoughts and inputs are appreciated. My main concerns are:The sump may be physically too small -I am using this 30"x12"x15" tank for the sump as I have several lying around empty. -I could put the pump inline to give more sump room -I suppose I could plum two of these together but how?Slightly different configuration for drainage in Tank1 to Tank 2How do you calculate accurately the gravity flow rates of the outtake. -I have added the gate valves as a means to be able to "equalise" the flow. -Horizontal water flow, pipe friction, foot valves reducing flow etc etc -Would aspirating the overflow potentially increase overflow? -However, I think my greatest issue will be achieving the return volume. -I plan to drill 50mm holes for the overflow in Tank 2 so as I could upgrade to 40mm bulkheads and PVC piping at a later day. There's so much more to add but at the moment I will post this as is........as I am heading out 15 minutes ago. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Equalizing the flow wont be a problem, what goes up must come down. The gate values are a waste of time In my opinion the sump is to small. If the water level drops and inch between running and not running you sump will most probably over flow. Now I know that you have allowed for an overflow, but in teh case of a blackout, you wont be around to refill it. if the power goes on it could pump your sump dry and blow up your pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobcas Posted April 13, 2009 Author Share Posted April 13, 2009 Thanks for the reply Josh. Equalizing the flow wont be a problem, what goes up must come down. The gate values are a waste of time Pretty simple in reality when you think about it I suppose......I've read to many Reef Aquarium articles where they seem to include just about every plumbing fitting known to mankind. In my opinion the sump is to small. ......................................... but in the case of a blackout, you wont be around to refill it. if the power goes on it could pump your sump dry and blow up your pump. Yeah, this is what I didn't really want to hear but subconsciously expected. Using one of the online Sump Calculator's this tank came in at the minimum recommended size. What size do you think would be suitable, perhaps 36'x18'x15? Can you see a way to join two of these smaller tanks together to make the sump (they would need to be side by side), could I take of two faces, (1 off each) and silicon them together or perhaps fit two large 40mm bulkheads between them? Obviously I could buy a tank but I do like the idea of being resourceful and using what I have, plus of course saving a couple of $$ helps. I think I need apply the KISS rule as my mind wanders:What about a top up system with some kind of float.....Surely there's an electrical solution where if the power goes off it throws a switch so as it wont come back on.......Couldn't I overflow to the other 30'x12'x15' tank and plumb in some kind of one way valve that would return the water Time to turn this brain off for a while. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Hi Ross, Sorry mate, I am not a fan of plumbing tanks that way. I think you will run into problems when the water hits the lower 5x2x2. The water escaping from the top 5x2 will be fine as it is able to breath with standpipes, but when you try to push that same amount of water through a 90 degree elbow it is going to be a different story. Air is naturally going to be drawn into the 90 degree bulkheads by the water. With the overflow pipe being submersed in the sump the air is going to want to escape back through the same place in which it came (the 90degree bulkhead). This will dramatically reduce the water flow. Sure some air will escape throught the submersed pipe into the sump but only through the force of the water. I have seen a few fish rooms and LFS set up in a similar way and they all have the same problem. They have to put back pressure on the pump in order to stop the tanks from over flowing (hence the gave valve on the pumps output). Reason being is that the bulkhead drilled at water level cant evacuate the water quick enough.However, one guys fish room I have seen recently incorperated a "durso" type setup on the bulkhead drilled at water level and it seemed to work well, so if you do go this way then maybe think of incorperating this into your designe. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobcas Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 Hi Ross, Sorry mate, I am not a fan of plumbing tanks that way........................... With the overflow pipe being submersed in the sump the air is going to want to escape back through the same place in which it came (the 90degree bulkhead). This will dramatically reduce the water flow. Sure some air will escape through the submersed pipe into the sump but only through the force of the water. ..............................................Reason being is that the bulkhead drilled at water level cant evacuate the water quick enough.However, one guys fish room I have seen recently incorperated a "durso" type setup on the bulkhead drilled at water level and it seemed to work well, so if you do go this way then maybe think of incorperating this into your design. Thanks Ben this is great input as it was something I was aware of but didn't consider when drawing up the plans, would one of these 3 options below work? I think I would probably put an end cap on the T and drill a hole in it, adjusting the size of it until I get the balance right. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishdance Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 If this were my system I would drain the top tank into the bottom tank via a filter suspended over the top of the bottom tank. In effect an overhead trickle filter which makes the bottom tank your sump (larger resevoir volume) and greatly reduces the water head needed to return water to your top tank saving you pump setup costs and ongoing running expenses. This also eliminates the need for a seperate sump tank and eliminates drilling the bottom tank, reduces pipe lengths, fittings, flow calculations etc. The filter does not need to be very large as long as ammonia and nitrite readings are zero but you can still customise media as desired. Letting the water trickle straight down (through) also eliminates need for sump baffles and will oxygenate the bottom tank extremely well. Alternatively keep the bottom tank drilled and constantly drip water into the system. Any excess water will overflow out the bottom tank holes which can be gravity fed to waste. No need for a float valve. If you do have your heart set on a sump then you can drill and join sumps and tanks with pipe horizontally. Drill as low as you can and input into one tank but pump out of the other to avoid dead water spots. Two holes reduce chances of blockage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dave Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I posted this on another forum but it might be helpful here. Like to find out why I had about 10 gallons of water on the floor when setting up the sump on Mrs Old Dave's new discus tank?? It seems syphons can be a blessing or a curse. When I turned the power off I expected the water from the weir to flow into the sump but it just kept on coming!! Eventually I woke up that the water was syphoning back down the sump pump "RETURN to TANK!" hose. Of course I was about 10 gallons too late. Anyway, the fix. Firstly, you can buy a Non Return Valve from a store that sells agricultural supplies (don't bother with Bunnings they don't even know these things exist. IMO the better alternative is simply to drill a hole (~4-6mm) in the return pipe below the max water level in the tank. Mine is about 30mm below max water level but it depends on how much overflow storage you can handle in your sump. If you turn the pump off this allows a certain amount of water to return to the sump so the tank doesn't overflow when you put your arm in. Simply put, the hole in the return breaks the syphon at a given depth and protects the floor. Just make sure it doesn't get blocked. I also put a big tap on the sump entry hose to be able to hold water in the weir when working on the sump. The other thing with sumps is to make certain you have a safety switch to protect YOU from water on the floor!! Thanks for all your great posts, HTH, Old Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobcas Posted April 16, 2009 Author Share Posted April 16, 2009 If this were my system I would drain the top tank into the bottom tank via a filter suspended over the top of the bottom tank. In effect an overhead trickle filter which makes the bottom tank your sump (larger resevoir volume) and greatly reduces the water head needed to return water to your top tank saving you pump setup costs and ongoing running expenses. This also eliminates the need for a seperate sump tank and eliminates drilling the bottom tank, reduces pipe lengths, fittings, flow calculations etc. The filter does not need to be very large as long as ammonia and nitrite readings are zero but you can still customise media as desired. Letting the water trickle straight down (through) also eliminates need for sump baffles and will oxygenate the bottom tank extremely well. Alternatively keep the bottom tank drilled and constantly drip water into the system. Any excess water will overflow out the bottom tank holes which can be gravity fed to waste. No need for a float valve. If you do have your heart set on a sump then you can drill and join sumps and tanks with pipe horizontally. Drill as low as you can and input into one tank but pump out of the other to avoid dead water spots. Two holes reduce chances of blockage. Thanks fishdance there's an option I never even considered, it would certainly reduce some of the costs involved. I do however for this rack have my mind set on a sump. I may well think about this for my upcoming 3 teir rack where I will have no room under the rack for a sump. Would you have any pictures of a similiar set up? IMO the better alternative is simply to drill a hole (~4-6mm) in the return pipe below the max water level in the tank. Mine is about 30mm below max water level but it depends on how much overflow storage you can handle in your sump. If you turn the pump off this allows a certain amount of water to return to the sump so the tank doesn't overflow when you put your arm in. Simply put, the hole in the return breaks the syphon at a given depth and protects the floor. Just make sure it doesn't get blocked. I also put a big tap on the sump entry hose to be able to hold water in the weir when working on the sump. Old Dave Thanks Old Dave again good sound advice. I learnt this "syphon" lesson myself years ago on my 8x2.5x2.5 display tank, it all started when the suction cap holding a spray bar in place slipped and the spray bar went from being horizontal to a 45 degree angle and due to needing a two man lift to remove the lid to fix it I left it where it was. Now you know where this tale is heading.... Yep one blackout later I was on my hands and knees mopping up a couple of hundred litres of water. A bit off topic but perhaps a good tip for others as well I was lucky to have lined the inside of my stand with lino (higher at the back) which was a blessing as most of the water pooled inside the stand or flowed out the front not out the back where it would have had to sit and dry naturally causing potential floor / wall / stand damage. It is something I would recommend doing as it saves water damage from the inevitable spills and lino is dirt cheap. Example below: I think I will put the valve on the plumbing as whilst it is a bit of overkill they are pretty cheap and yeah as Dave suggests could come in very handy for water flow when the sump first starts up. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fry_2_buy Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Hi Ross, Sorry mate, I am not a fan of plumbing tanks that way. I think you will run into problems when the water hits the lower 5x2x2. The water escaping from the top 5x2 will be fine as it is able to breath with standpipes, but when you try to push that same amount of water through a 90 degree elbow it is going to be a different story. Air is naturally going to be drawn into the 90 degree bulkheads by the water. With the overflow pipe being submersed in the sump the air is going to want to escape back through the same place in which it came (the 90degree bulkhead). This will dramatically reduce the water flow. Sure some air will escape throught the submersed pipe into the sump but only through the force of the water. I have seen a few fish rooms and LFS set up in a similar way and they all have the same problem. They have to put back pressure on the pump in order to stop the tanks from over flowing (hence the gave valve on the pumps output). Reason being is that the bulkhead drilled at water level cant evacuate the water quick enough.However, one guys fish room I have seen recently incorperated a "durso" type setup on the bulkhead drilled at water level and it seemed to work well, so if you do go this way then maybe think of incorperating this into your designe. HTH You wouldn't be-able to get any pictures of the setup in particular focus to the durso pipe would you? (Finding it difficult to see how its incorporated) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dave Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Ross, I am all for the cross tank water flow in the sump and tank 2, is there a reason why the inlet & outlet are so close in Tank 1? I think you are correct in considering using 2 tanks for the sump as I suspect 1 small 30" tank isn't going to be enough for 2x 5x2x2 tanks. You might need to look at the inlet & outlet being at the same end but in different side by side tanks with a through connection pipe at the other end below water level. Lots more room for media walls!! JMO, HTH Old Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobcas Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 Ross, I am all for the cross tank water flow in the sump and tank 2, is there a reason why the inlet & outlet are so close in Tank 1? Old Dave The only reason why they look so close is my crappy 2D drawing, the return to tank 1 will actually be at the opposite end to the 2 standpipes (not the side). I think you are correct in considering using 2 tanks for the sump as I suspect 1 small 30" tank isn't going to be enough for 2x 5x2x2 tanks. You might need to look at the inlet & outlet being at the same end but in different side by side tanks with a through connection pipe at the other end below water level. Lots more room for media walls!! JMO, HTH Old Dave The sump is my dilemma, as suggested I have a few of these 30" tanks lying around so I could join two of them side by side via two 40mm bulkheads and then pump as you suggest from the same end as the inlet but different tank, This leaves me with two questions / concerns"The flow and depth of water...will doing this leave a dead spot in the first sump tank or simply because of the volume being put through it it should be o.k. I assume using two 40mm bulkheads will be adequate? I could easily fork out $100 and buy a 36"x20" but I may as well use what is just lying around unused and taking up space and get the satisfaction of DIY. Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dave Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Ross, when you look in good LFS's at their sump to tank volume ratio I think you will see you really need a good 4' sump. Don't count the tank inches, count the litres. The sump height would be less important than the width, except for overflow water storage. If you have 2' wide tanks then maybe you need to consider a similar width sump, but check what are the standard widths of any pre-manufactured filter media components you plan to use. Some of the other sump discussions on this forum probably give a tank/sump litres ratio. In using the stand pipes, how do you plan to pick up the rubbish on the bottom of the tanks? I find a lot of waste on the tank bottom beside the weir which needs to be syphoned out regularly. HTH, JMO, Old Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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