wazza Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Hi, i know there is another topic on Albinos but it is more of a WTB post than this is. My questions are: What are the chances of getting an albino/s in a brood of fry from normal parents? When the albinos bred would you get some non albino and some albino? I look forward to your help. wazza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazza Posted January 16, 2004 Author Share Posted January 16, 2004 Does anyone know? Alan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianniz Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 its around but its all about contacts and $$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazza Posted January 18, 2004 Author Share Posted January 18, 2004 Ahhhh, I think you got my questiong wrong Giannaz. I want to know how often you get Albinos out of a breeding pair of Normals. Not where i can buy them. Thanks anyway. wazza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Gee Waz, I have no idea what the chance is of getting an abino. Probably higher odds than winning lotto. But it is there at every roll of the dice. Out of the tens of thousands of Bristle nose I have raised I only ever had two "odd colour" fry. Neither was albino and neither survived. Then just look at Tammy! She has been breeding with the same groups of C sterbai for years. But this season she has got 7 albinos out of 4 or 5 hundred fry. That is pretty outstanding. Fortunately she is a pretty cool catfish breeder and I look foreward to seeing what she can do with these next summer. So the the chance of an albino showing up in anybodies spawn is there. I just pray that if one does show up here it is not wasted. An albino male and a few of his sisters could see albinos in the LFS in two years or less. A female and her brother, two year if lucky, or three years no prob. We just need one fish. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypo Zebra Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 The answer to your question is yes you inbreed any species of fish long enough albinoism will be a trait that will come out. Thats how all albinos have been derived. When this occurs in the wild the young albinos do not survive for a number of reasons. 1. They are a weaker strain 2. They are highly visible to predators If you want albinoism just keep on inbreeding brothers and sisters and eventually you will get albonos and a heap of other deformities. Hypo Zebra's Webpage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots n all Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 It sounds like a small island state of our cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazza Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Thanks guys, so basically any spawn could have an albino in it but it is unlikey. And if you keep inbreeding them you will get albinos. (i dont want to inbreed, id rather keep them strong). Thanks again wazza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I think I should clarify something. You can't "create" an albino by inbreeding.Inbreeding does not "cause" deformities. What happens is this - a deformity or variation is often (not always of course) a recessive genetic mutation. This means (in simple terms) that 2 copies of the gene must be inherited for it to show up in an animal. It also means the gene can be hidden. Let's take albinisim as an example. In most species albinism is caused by a recessive gene. Every animal has two genes in this area - 2 normal genes make a normal coloured animal. 1 normal gene and 1 albino gene make a normal coloured animal, but it's carrying the albino gene "hidden". 2 albino genes make an albino animal. So to breed an albino animal from 2 normal coloured ones they have to both be carrying the albino genes. Pretty much all of our bristlenose out there have 2 normal genes and no albino gene hanging around. Even if you breed brother to sister and keep doing this.....if the albino gene isn't there in the first place it isn't going to show up, ever! You'd have to wait for a spontaneous mutation - which is a bit of a "one in a million" kind of event. The reason why people associate inbreeding with deformities is because inbreeding increases the chance of a recessive mutation getting inherited as 2 copies (one from a mother carrying it and one from a father carrying it) and thus it becomes visible. So.....if you had a "one in a million" albino bristlenose show up, you only have one animal to work with. So you have no choice but to breed it to a normal coloured one. All the offspring carry one albino and one normal gene and are all normal coloured. The quickest way to get albinos to show up is to breed these brothers/sisters to each other and you will get about 25% albinos, or to breed these offspring back to the albino parent to get 50% albino offspring. That's just the albinos though - there could be other recessive genes lurking in there too and because you have practised some serious inbreeding there you don't know what else will show up, just as the albino colour showed up. This is one reason why albino animals are often more "delicate" than normal ones. I hope this helps, but I have simplified this a lot - there are often other factors at play, for example it's unusual for one single gene to get damaged and cause a simple recessive situation as described above. A mutation is basically damage to DNA - the damage could affect other nearby genes as well, so although you might have an albino colour, there could be other things wrong with it too, due to other damaged genes. And there's lots of other stuff......it gets complicated. But the bottom line is - inbreeding does NOT create mutations, deformities etc. The deformity gene must be already hidden in there somewhere, inbreeding makes it more LIKELY that it will show up. Cheers, Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazza Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 Thanks heaps for that jess! It was a great read! thanks for your time and effort on that one. Are you a biologist or something? Thanks again. wazza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Nope, not a biologist, a veterinarian actually, but have always had an interest in various aspects of biology. One little pet subject of mine is the inheritance of colour mutations and deformities (something I need to know about as a vet - as I constantly see examples of poor breeding causing suffering to dogs and cats). But there are others here who understand all this genetics stuff better than me........the more you get into it, the more complicated it gets! heers, Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barra Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 hi jess, im not here to dispute whether you are right or not but one of the previous posts by Alan details information about Then just look at Tammy! She has been breeding with the same groups of C sterbai for years. But this season she has got 7 albinos out of 4 or 5 hundred fry. Now, i know a little bit about genetics and i fully agree with you about recessive genes being displayed only when both parents pass the recessive gene to the offspring. i also agree with you about there being a 25% chance of albino offspring occuring. so wouldnt it make sence only if 100-125 of Tammy's 400-500 fry were albinos? hope this makes sence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Barra, your assumption would be correct if Tammy was breeding from one pair of fish. That would be real neat, as then we would know which two normal coloured fish carried the recessive gene and we would expect 25% of the offspring to be albino. Maybe I didn't make myself clear in that "sterbai" thead but I am sure I said group of fish not pair. I'm not absolutely certain of the number but from recollection Tammy has 15 or 20 fish in that breeding school. But which couple carry the albino gene is going to take some sorting out... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caty Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Hi Barra, The low number of albino offspring is due to the number breeding in the tank, at present there's 16 sterbai of breeding age in the tank there was 13, I made the mistake of adding a few more which will only make finding the carriers that bit harder. Anyway I'd say only 2 of these (yet to be determined) carry the albino gene. So you can imagine with the number of sterbai in the tank these 2 wouldn't meet all that often. To date there has been a total of 11 albino offspring from the normal sterbai. Who knows if there may have been more. Tammy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 What Jess wrote is right, as a "rule". Dosent always end exact though barra. Anyone breeding anything with colour variants, I will use my border collies as an example;I have breed my male red twice with a female red. The numbers from a litter work out different every time. From 5 red out of 8 to 3 red out of 8.(2 litters) in theory you would hope all be red. A friend of mine has 2 black & white border collies that throw tri colours" nearly all pups are tri colours, just the odd black one . both parents have the tri colour gene"recessive". The convicts I had were more true to theory, I had a black pair that would throw 50% albinos, both had the albino gene"recessive". Anyway to breed albinos "bn" you will need both m & f to be at least carrying the recessive gene. The 25%,50%,25% is a basic Biology theory, but variances of this do occur. Frenchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 if someone bred some b/n that had say 1 albino would that mean that the rest of the fry would have the albino gene recessive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted May 30, 2004 Share Posted May 30, 2004 Kimbo, To get one albino both parents need to be carrying the albino gene and provided that we know which fish are the parents we could expect 25% of their offspring to be albino, 50% normal colour but with one albino gene, and 25% totally normal. Unfortunately you have no way of telling apart the 50% carrying the recessive gene and the 25% totally normal without breeding trials. In my instance, if an albino showed up in one of my tanks I would be in the same boat as Tammy and her C sterbai. There would be no way I could indentify the parents without a hell of a breeding program mating every male in the colony individually with every female. and if my maths is correct that could be 75 matings before I hit the right combination. I have got three small albinos still surviving out of a group I bought a couple of months ago. As yet I can't tell for sure if there is a pair in that three. (Fingers crossed). I am growing them on with a group of local normals that were the same size when they went together but have outgrown the albinos considerably. And going by the pattern of dots , spots and bars I have my doubts whether they are even the same species as our local bristles. Time will tell. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 hmm i see thanks for that alan... luckily this one was bred from a pair so maybe ill buy all the fry grow them up and see wat happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntoTheRainz Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Hi so can some expert in genetic please explain how come some albino have black eye which i found some on us forum. I know that albino suppose to have red eye but then what species is the one with black eye? is it cross? or different type of species? ( Big fan of bnoise , just collect around 700 fry hatched in last 4 days so happy) bankx in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Hi Rainz, The black eyed gold bristle nose may or may not be the same species of bristle nose as our normals or albinoes, but it not an albino. It is a "Lutino" colour varient of a normal coloured fish. Some nice pics and a bit of info from across the pond http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewtopic.php?t=2494 They can get thier hands on some real neet plecoes in NZ Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 hey Alan, thanks for the link to the forum..lots of interesting reading..here's a picture of my Albino Bristlenose...I got 8 of them about 2-3 weeks ago, at just over an inch in length...david http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v59/dk...coupleweeks.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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