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If you have soil under the gravel, well, you simply don’t vacuum it, for all the horror reasons you have imagined. But also for no other reason than you will disturb the plant’s roots, which can get incredibly extensive (should see the root system of a large sword plant). In a planted tank, with or without soil in the gravel (or laterite for that matter – boy that sure makes a mess), one does not vacuum the gravel.

The mulm, as Poe has mentioned is also a fertiliser, so you don’t want to remove it. You will find it may build up to some extent in a section of the tank, but never get to geological proportions, and elsewhere you won’t notice it.

Plant tanks are quite different from fish, fish tanks, in some subtle ways, and also in their complexity, compared to a fish, fish tank. One advantage of a planted tank is you don’t have to worry about the build up of mulm, which is a bit of a time saver when it comes to maintenance. But this labour saved is more than made up for with the pruning a successful plant tank will produce. ohmy.gif

Craig

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Thanks for your guidance fellas!

[Admins: Sorry - this could be construed as a thread hijack, so please move if need be.]

I understand that the various forms of mulm would be good for the plants, but am thinking in terms of a planted tank with fish.

OK - here's the scenario... I am tossing up whether to go discus or goldfish (oranda, etc) for a display on my desk at home. I can fit a 24 x 18 x 18 (I think that's a custom job) and was thinking to make it a lengthways tank (ie make one of the narrow ends the back, rather than the conventional long edge as back), so as to make it an aesthetic feature visible from both sides. The room heats to 28C at the worst of summer.

Would it be best to get the tank cycled and plants well established before adding the livestock? Say, a few months with 1W/G or 2W/G lighting? Would this produce an adequately stable environment?

Would these possible choices of livestock be OK with the amount of poo and other mulm that occurs normally? Would the livestock flourish (ie not just survive, but do really well) with just surface vacuuming of the gravel?

Also, how thick should the garden soil (like the stuff they sell at Bunnings etc as 'garden soil') layer be, and how thick should the gravel on top be?

What fertiliser regime would give the best growth and longevity for the plants, yet be compatible with the livestock water parm needs?

Sorry to be so full of questions, but I'm starting to get more serious about heavily planted tanks and want to learn from those in the know.

Oh - and one last question: is there any source of Amano's books that is low cost? I feel the need for additional source material and inspiration.

Cheers - OziOscar.

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Goldfish (2-3) would work, and can be real characters; can't comment on discus. Also consider having two BNs, and optionally three small SAEs; that way you should never have to clean the glass. biggrin.gif

Would it be best to get the tank cycled and plants well established before adding the livestock? Say, a few months with 1W/G or 2W/G lighting? Would this produce an adequately stable environment?

If you plant the tank well, you don't need to cycle it as the plants will take up the Ammonia. There are some plant people who don't even believe in having bio-media, and just use a powerhead to circulate the water. I assume you are not using CO2? If so, stay with 1W/G; less algae problem. I find that with a fertilised substrate, 2 weeks is enough to get things established.

Would these possible choices of livestock be OK with the amount of poo and other mulm that occurs normally? Would the livestock flourish (ie not just survive, but do really well) with just surface vacuuming of the gravel?

From personal experience, goldfish will thrive. You really don't need to even surface vac, unless it's a bare patch.

Also, how thick should the garden soil (like the stuff they sell at Bunnings etc as 'garden soil') layer be, and how thick should the gravel on top be?

Mix peat with potting mix (without added fertiliser) (I have no experience with this, although have been told it works well, especially with peat), or use laterite (what I have in two tanks, one of which was with the leftover laterite), and have that as the bottom layer, about 1" thick. The 2" of gravel on top.

What fertiliser regime would give the best growth and longevity for the plants, yet be compatible with the livestock water parm needs?

I have used both Ferreal and Flourish for water column; both work. Also use small 1cm sections of fertiliser spikes (fern spikes, Manutec), pushed v. deep, for Echinodorus.

Oh - and one last question: is there any source of Amano's books that is low cost? I feel the need for additional source material and inspiration.

Check the library; I have a couple you can borrow for the short term since you are just around the corner. wink.gif

If you want to own the books, Amazon can also be a good source, as they often have specials, but take a look first. Depending on what you want to do, Amano's books may not be what you want to own.

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Goldfish will eat plants. You can put hardier/tougher plants in to counter this, but they will restrict your choice.

You don’t mention what the minimum temperature will be, only max (28), is the tank to be heated, or is to be the same temperature as the air conditioned room? If so, it may be too cool for tropical fish. It will be too cool for discus, and in any case, a two foot is too small for discus (cater for their adult size not the size they are purchased at).

You will need to add some sort of bacterial culture to the tank, as the plants will only be effective “filters” once they are established, which can take time. It is okay to add fish at the same time, but as stated make sure the tank has some sort of bacterial starter (shake bottle well).

Wether or not your plants do “really well” depends on a heck of a lot more than the mulm that is available to them. You really need to do some surfing on the net, go look at the Krib as they have some good plant info there. Keeping a plant, PLANT tank, has a lot of ins and outs to get the balance required for the plants to do “really well”.

Have no idea what sort of soil Bunnings sell, but I would prefer to get it from a source where I KNOW chemicals haven’t been used. If you want to go the way of soil substrate, get some from a backyard. If I were in your position, I would be more inclined to use laterite. As to the depth, it has to be a useful size, but also it has to be aesthetically pleasing (ie. not too thick). From my perspective in an 18” tank, I wouldn’t want to have any more than say 3” of substrate. Say 2” of 3mm gravel, and 1” of soil.

As to the fertiliser question. You will need to do some research as this is a HUGE question. As for myself, I used the PMDD (described on the Krib), but there are a whole lot of commercial preparations on the market.

There are no problems with asking questions, as I constantly hear, the only dumb question is the one not asked….However, if you are really serious about a Planted tank, there is a lot of knowledge you will need to acquire, and now is the time to get it, before you do the tank. I have no idea if there is such an animal (fish of course) as a cheap Amano book, however you are more in need of information that the inspiration in an Amano book. Amano books (least wise the one I have has) good written information as well as gob smacking photos.

The best book on planted tanks I ever read was “The Optimal Aquarium”, but I don’t think it is still available, but who knows you may find a second hand one in your quest (buy one for me too please).

What you finish up doing will greatly depend on what you learn on the way, and there is a lot to learn with Planted tanks, but I guess with everything, this will depend on also how much you want to learn, and how interested you are. I personally wouldn’t go with gold fish as they will restrict your plant choice. I also would not mix cold water fish and tropical fish (as suggested , bristle-nose and SAE’s) as they will both have different temperature requirements, not to mention bristle nose can damage plants. Goldfish should also really be kept in alkaline water, and your plant tank should have a pH range of 6.8-7. If you want to go with gold fish, stick with plants such as ribbon grass that can obtain their CO2 via a different means than other plants, and should/could also stand up to the gold fish's

herbivorous attentions.

Discus can be great in a planted tank, but really require a larger tank, not to mention due to their special water requirements (temp and pH) will also restrict your plant choice. In an Amano book there are some truly spectacular plant tanks with discus, so this should not put you off discus.

If you feel so inclined, you may phone me, and I will attempt to answer some of your queries, 9541-4195 (Sydney).

Craig

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Hello!

First off... thanks for the hints again Poe. I'm seriously considering goldfish, but can't find livestock that really tickles my fancy, even with weekly visits to Lams, the little joint in West Ryde, Strictly on Victoria Rd, the LFS on Penshurst St and others and that jaunt down to Canley Vale. Maybe it's just the wrong time of year or something.

BNs are definitely going into whatever I end up doing. That fella that you passed to me is one hungry little vacuum cleaner. He's doing well with his harem in the Malawi tank.

It sound like laterite will be the substrate of choice for planting.

No, I'm not using CO2 and I'm going to try to avoid it else I just know I'm going to end up with a G size cylinder and the manifold from hell. I get carried away... biggrin.gif

Thank you also for your kind offer to borrow your Amano books, but I think they're something I should own so will keep an eagle eye out for some at the right price as I make my way around town and the net. Again, my thanks for your generosity.

And Craig... thanks for the guidance... You're a game man to publish a phone number in an open forum. biggrin.gif

To respond...

I will be heating the tank, no matter what species goes in there. GF do better with a stable temperature, say 24 - 26 than the potentially wildly fluctuating temperature in most homes. The office it's intended for is my home one and I'm not one of the air-con people - our species did well enough without it and I reckon I'm hard-boiled enough to take the heat (but not oo much cold!). When the heat goes up here, I knock out the lighting or reduce it to only the cooler times of the day. 28C only lasts for a week or so most summers in this apartment. The higher temperature is one of the reasons that I considered discus, seeing that they are well happy at 28 - 30C. The water chemistry that they like is another matter altogether...

I have a cycled filter standing by. I picked up some low cost cannisters from my LFS and they're pretty OK (they're no Eheim but they work well). I popped an extra one onto another tank so it would be ready to go if the Classifieds suddenly had some livestock that I couldn't resist. My query was more about giving the plants time to settle in before being harangued by livestock. I think Poe caught that one. 2 weeks it is... I will put a little 300 lph a mini-power-head in there for circulation and save the filter until there is a bioload for it.

Out of curiosity... what bacteria-in-a-bottle have you used that you feel is truly good? I've tried Cycle and have no complaints, but I'm sure there is something out there that's better and isn't being sold at a higher price than 25 year old Scotch. wink.gif

I'm going to give soil a miss. I can get plenty of pure, sandy soil from my Mother's home as no chemical has been used in that garden since the 1960s. Still, with you and Poe saying laterite is the go, then I think I will doff my cap to your group wisdom.

I recognise that GFs are prone to munch on anything that looks remotely tasty. I've a pretty good crop of Java Fern (thanks Poe!) and am keeping my eye out for twisted / contortionist / whatever-the-LFS-wants-to-call-it-this-week Val sp. and anything else that I can find that's not going to be a vege snack. smile.gif

And the big one... is under-substrate heating a good idea for this kind of arrangement?

Thanks for teaching me so much in a short time. Love to hear any other ideas and hints that you may have.

Cheers - OziOscar.

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Under gravel heating is a benefit, myself, I used a water bed heater, situated between the glass and polystyrene. You mention you are not interested in CO2, which is fine. However, have you heard of the Liebig Minimum Theory? It states, “Plant growth is determined by the one factor that is present at a minimum”. That means that it doesn’t matter how well your tank is put together, catering for every ingredient known to plant, if there is a shortfall in one ingredient, say with nitrate (I had to add nitrate to my planted tank), the other parameters can only be access, according to the level of the nitrate. Often this excess can be used by algae, so in this case, if you raise your nitrate level, one can eradicate algae. To be really contrary, if ones limiting factor is light, actually adding light may get rid of an algae issue….If you don’t add CO2, you may find the this will be your limiting factor (depends on a whole bunch of other variable as well, fish numbers, plant species, water movement…), and maybe the plants will do just as well with or without under gravel heating.

There are so many variable to consider, a tank without CO2, and without under gravel heating may do just fine, and you will be more than satisfied. But if you go and buy a whole bunch of light hungry plants (one with red leaves for example, or really fine, light green leaves), under the same conditions that Java fern and Val get by on (and do well), these plants will fall apart, or at best, not show red colour.

I don’t blame you for not going the CO2 route, but what I would recommend, as I did before, do more research. Look at the Krib as I suggested, get a whole bunch of opinions, and create your own.

The one thing I think most people will agree with, the more options you use, CO2, under gravel heating, laterite, specialised lighting, the more chance you will have that tank you see in your imagination. biggrin.gif

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First off... thanks for the hints again Poe. I'm seriously considering goldfish, but can't find livestock that really tickles my fancy, even with weekly visits to Lams, the little joint in West Ryde, Strictly on Victoria Rd, the LFS on Penshurst St and others and that jaunt down to Canley Vale. Maybe it's just the wrong time of year or something.

Apparently Spring is the time for goldfish, but I know the feeling; it's very frustrtating, and when we found a pair of pearlscales we liked, we suddenly had a new tank too!

It sound like laterite will be the substrate of choice for planting.

As for laterite, apparently there are free sources around the Central Coast, where there are red hillsides of that stuff. If you are not using CO2, it might be beneficial to mix peat in with that lowest layer, as decomposition will release some CO2, and will also help Fe binding of the laterite (from the advise of aquarist who know more than I do about such things).

Thank you also for your kind offer to borrow your Amano books, but I think they're something I should own so will keep an eagle eye out for some at the right price as I make my way around town and the net. Again, my thanks for your generosity.

Regarding the Amano books, my offer is because you might want to take a look at them first before buying; personally I found Aquarium Plant Paradise, which is cheaper, to be more interesting as he lists the plants and fish, whereas Nature Aquarium World, although listing CO2 and substrate, does not list plants and fish (it does have more pictures of his tank setups though).

Out of curiosity... what bacteria-in-a-bottle have you used that you feel is truly good? I've tried Cycle and have no complaints, but I'm sure there is something out there that's better and isn't being sold at a higher price than 25 year old Scotch. wink.gif

Having a planted, planted tank, I don't use bacteria. Plants take up ammonia (as well as nitrate), so why waste time converting it?

I recognise that GFs are prone to munch on anything that looks remotely tasty. I've a pretty good crop of Java Fern (thanks Poe!) and am keeping my eye out for twisted / contortionist / whatever-the-LFS-wants-to-call-it-this-week Val sp. and anything else that I can find that's not going to be a vege snack. smile.gif

Do you really want Vals? I'm considering thinning one tank of Corkscrew Vals that is taking over. My goldfish tank (as you have seen) has Crypts, Aponogeton, Echinodorus, Anubias, Bolbitis, Vals, Microsorums and Rotala (rotundifolia - they seem to leave it alone mostly).

And the big one... is under-substrate heating a good idea for this kind of arrangement?

Under substrate heating is not necessary. Craigs method is cheaper, but if you follow The Optimum Aquarium, you need undergravel heating, as you need to heat the gravel unevenly to get very slow water flow through it for ion exchange. Even for people who have long standing tanks (apparently the benefits are suppose to kick in at the 1-2 year mark after the Fe in laterite is depleted), they still can't agree if it's necessary; at least one (Tom Barr) has said no, as plant roots create a micro-circulation anyway, and when we replant, we disturb things enough to prevent stagnation.

Just be aware that CO2 is usually the limiting factor in most planted tanks. I really notice the difference in my goldfish tank that does not have CO2; the growth rate is much slower.

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Just came across this on the Aquatic Plants mailing list (a few weeks ago); I think it will help with those considering undergravel heating. Karen is well known in planted aquaria circles.

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:02:15 -0500

From: "Karen Randall" <krandall@rdrcpa.biz>

Subject: [APD] UG/Heater

To: <Aquatic-Plants@actwin.com>

> --- Sandra Derrick <mygenericemailname@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > I wanted to get some imput on a substrate heating idea

> > based loosely on a Karen Randall design; using a u.g.

> > filter plate covered in a nylon to prevent substrate

> > particle loss, I would have a chamber added to one lift

> > tube large enough to house a submersable heater, the top

> > of the tube would have the outflow hose from my canister

> > filter fed into it creating a downward flow into the u.g.

> > plate. the oposite end would have a small powerhead on

> > the lift tube creating "lift" which sould cause the warm

> > water to flow under the plate and back into the aquarium-

> > the powerhead would be about half way to the surface and

> > would not have the venturi added, so it wouldn't create

> > too much surface disruption, only a bit of movement in

> > the water itself. Don't know if this will work...let me

> > know what ya'all think.

First, I'd like to point out that this is NOT "my" system, nor did I ever

claim that it was. It was suggested to me by Claus Christensen of Tropica

as a low-cost alternative to heating cables a NUMBER of years ago. Please

try to keep attributions straight. Also, remember when you read things on

the internet, that things tend to stay out there for way longer than the

ideas may be current. When I first wrote about this method, it was in the

early "Dupla Days" in this country, when few people had experimented with

different methods of substrate heating, and we we didn't have any where near

the experience level we have now.

In defense of the system, (which, BTW, I no longer use) it does do exactly

what Claus said it would do. In a cold room, very often the water in the

substrate will stratify. It is much easier for water to mix above the

substrate than within it. A regular UGF moves water much more quickly than

we would want in a planted tank, as would the design proposed above. The

method Sandra proposes will move water too quickly, just like a regular (or

reverse flow) UGF. If you use laterite, the result will be a mess. Even

without laterite, ideally we want a reducing environment in the substrate,

not one charged with highly oxygenated water.

The UGF/heater method that Claus suggested does not use a big heater, or any

special "chamber". It is simply a very small, low-watt, non-thermostatic

heater (the ones I used were 7.5W heaters meant for betta bowls) dropped to

the bottom of the normal UGF uplift tube. You don't WANT a larger space, or

you wouldn't get the convection current to pull water up the tube. This

works just like the chimney in a fire place.

I will tell you all again my experiences when I first tried it. It DOES do

exactly what Claus said it would do. It integrated the water in the

substrate with that in the water column, so the temperature was the same,

and no longer stratified. I measured the temperature a number of times, and

it was exactly the same under the substrate as it was above. (There had

been quite a temperature difference before installing the plates, because

the tank was in a fairly cold dining room)

Now the big question is, did it improve growth? The answer in my experience

was no. But then, neither did heating cables when I tried those.<g> I had

good growth before using either of these methods. I continued to have good

growth with them. In the tanks I've set up since then I have reverted to

not bothering with any type of substrate heating. They work fine, and are

ALL long-term tanks. My "newest" tank is over 3 years old at this point.

I've had tanks running and healthy for as long as 8 years without any sort

of substrate heating. When I have taken a tank down, it has never been due

to a "problem" in the tank, but because the tank had to be moved for one

reason or another.

There are a (very) few people who still swear by substrate heating. Most of

us have found that it just doesn't make much (if any difference) and don't

bother. As other people have suggested, I WOULD recommend insulating the

bottom of a tank that is kept in a cool room to prevent stratification as

much as possible. This is easy and cheap enough that I see no reason NOT to

do it.

Karen

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Based on the evidence and research, I shall forgo substrate heating. I do get the impression that there would be some degree of natural convection through the gravel layer and therefore also to some extent in the soil / lower substrate. In a colder place than Sydney I think it would perhaps be more necessary.

In fact... it would be hard to install now that the system is up. biggrin.gif

I tried to find a few kg of laterite, but all I could get was a box of Duplarit G and mixed that into the gravel. Beneath the gravel is the pure soil I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I enriched it with peat to aid in fertilisation and pH reduction in the long term. Next central coast fishing trip or Hunter Valley jaunt I will find those hills and harvest a little red mud and save it. Some of the Duplarit went into the water column but it has been collected by the fine filter already.

I raided an LFS for some really great Amazon Swords (HUGE! All of them have runners with avg 6 plants per runner), some other smaller sword and grabbed some other S. American bits and pieces from my last SA tank. Added driftwood, planning to keep the temp at 28 (not hard given the current weather!) and wait for the tannins to leach properly.

I still want something like 'hair grass' (sorry, dont know species name) for a very low level ground cover. Any hints?

In showing too much enthusiasm, I tossed in some Cycle after the Prime and 10 cardinal tetras who are having a ball and looking obscenely healthy, so far. Now to wait 2 - 3 weeks while the plants root and I bring the pH down a little (it's 7.2 roughly now).

Looking forward to your advice, commentary and guidance.

Cheers - OziOscar.

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You really don't need kilos of laterite; one box of DuplaritG is for 200L (from memory), as you mix it with gravel, or in your case soil. The gravel is pure gravel, at least 1", better 2", over the whole mess (which you'll get if the bottom mix gets exposed).

For hairgrass, you can either use Lilaeopsis or E. tenellus; Lilaeopsis needs high light, and I've never had success with it as the fish has been rooting them out (goldfish in one, clown loaches in the other).

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I misread the earlier advice that was given in this forum - it read to me that there was to be a 1" layer of laterite under the gravel. Anyway, I did the DuplaritG thing and mixed it with the gravel, not the soil as the box didn't even mention soil in the equation.

There is 1" at the front and 2.5" gravel at the back, so it's well anchored. I haven't 'tucked' the gravel yet... will post a pic later in the day.

The roots on the Echinodorus sp. runners are growing at a ferocious rate! They have increased by around 1" per day for the last few days. I bought a 'grass' but didn't note the species info (will post later), but it's growing at much the same rate.

I'm thinking to get an Otocinclus sp. for the clean-up crew but am not sure of they can handle the heat as I think I will go the discus route (some juvies and buy / swap / sell / set-up another big tank as they grow) and they seem to like 30C. What otos are available out here?

I'm only running 1 W / G at the moment - one of the NEC HG-BR 18W, but am deciding on a new fixture (maybe a 55W CF with a 10K/5K5 split) as I won't be using a hood as there is no space in the position this tank is in.

The 'hair grass' I saw looked sort of like 50 - 75 mm tall wheat grass. I think it was Eleocharis minima. It was constrained in pots which is a sure fire hint that it grows enthusiastically once it is loose. The Lilaeopsis spp. sounds like a good one as it's very low and grows untidily. What sp/var is the one in the LFS likely to be? When you say 'high light', what would that be? 3-4-5W/G?

Thanks for teaching me.

Cheers - OziOscar.

PS - I ordered Amano 1 and 3 from Amazon. They're on sale for US$25 for #1 and US$21 for #3. Even with freight amortised over those two it was less than the book shops were quoting. I bought a pile of other non-aquarium stuff too (yes, I have a life other than fish and business biggrin.gif).

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What otos are available out here?

I gather O. affinis is the only legal import.

The 'hair grass' I saw looked sort of like 50 - 75 mm tall wheat grass. I think it was Eleocharis minima. It was constrained in pots which is a sure fire hint that it grows enthusiastically once it is loose. The Lilaeopsis spp. sounds like a good one as it's very low and grows untidily. What sp/var is the one in the LFS likely to be? When you say 'high light', what would that be? 3-4-5W/G?

I was told at least 2W/G (although mine is doing okay with a bit less, until the loaches decided to dig them out); Glosso is 3-4W/G. As far a variety, your guess is as good as mine; no one in LFSs seems to know, or is interested in knowing.

PS - I ordered Amano 1 and 3 from Amazon. They're on sale for US$25 for #1 and US$21 for #3. Even with freight amortised over those two it was less than the book shops were quoting. I bought a pile of other non-aquarium stuff too (yes, I have a life other than fish and business biggrin.gif).

Amazon certainly has stuff at very good prices; recently got a Screwpull lever and a set of 4 Reidel for A$135 delivered, which is very decent. biggrin.gif

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Looks like O. affinis it is! Time to start looking...

I had a look at the plant survey at NZ Fish Forums about the light levels. They don't mention W/G but just low, medium and high light levels which I suppose could be extrapolated to 1-2W/G. 2-3W/G and 4+W/G. Given that I am trying to maintain a subdued lighting level I guess the Lileaopsis spp. will be the choice.

The price you got for your Riedel and level is excellent! I didn't know they sold goods as well as books. Were they Sommelier or Vinum series?

Cheers - OziOscar.

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Looks like O. affinis it is! Time to start looking...

Aquapets often have them; give Chris a call there.

I had a look at the plant survey at NZ Fish Forums about the light levels. They don't mention W/G but just low, medium and high light levels which I suppose could be extrapolated to 1-2W/G. 2-3W/G and 4+W/G. Given that I am trying to maintain a subdued lighting level I guess the Lileaopsis spp. will be the choice.

Low is under 1W/G, medium 2-3, and high is above that.

The price you got for your Riedel and level is excellent! I didn't know they sold goods as well as books. Were they Sommelier or Vinum series?

No, it was the cheaper Ouverture that came free with the Lever. I'd be rather nervous with the more expensive ones... They sell all sorts of things, even electrical goods, and certainly kitchen stuff.

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