Vieja synspilum

[Alex]

Male is 14" or slightly larger, female 12", so quite a large pair. I'll get better pics as they settle in. :

[benno]

WOW!!!! they look very nice. My friends dad had a pair that spawned 3 times before the HUGE male killed his girlfriend. They were a very lovely looking pair of fish if only he thought to stick a divider in the tank if only. Oh well keep up the good work your fish look great and hope to see sum m ore pics.

Benno

[Citypainter]

They are impressive.

Whats the giant catfish? I seen one on TV last week I think it was in Peru.

[Link2Hell]

Hi Alex

I take it you just got these guys ?

Is there a return policy because from what I can see

you got more than just Synspilum in those fish

they look like there is either Blackbelt or Bifasciatus

there aswell

The 3rd pic is of the female by the look of the fish and

is difficult to get a good idea of the colour and markings

The last 2 pics of the male clearly show it is not correct

to type for Synspilum with the eye patch and the spotting

around the head it also shows that the red flush appears to

be in the throat area only not the whole face which lends

to the Blackbelt theory

Sorry Alex

L2H

[the cichlid kid]

I tend to agree with link but being no expert i did not want to suggest anything.

IMO the spotting on the head gives it away!

[Alex]

Well you two are the first two people to say they are hybrids out of possibly hundreds who have seen the pics, but thanks for trying to help me out.

I have e-mailed a few other people the pics to see what eveyone else thinks, to me they look pure, but im no expert.

I should also add if these do turn out to be hybrids i will keep them as they are beautiful fish and dont really have any intentions of selling them or the fry if they produce.

[Alex]

These fish came from a PCS sponsor.... : Which will obviously stay nameless.

I just had a look at just about EVERY pics of synspilum on the net, a good hour or so of searching plus the searches i did this morning.

I looked at the points you mentioned.

The conclusion I have some to is- that i will never be certain.

The reason for this- Some of the pics i saw pictured fish with completely black bellys, a black horizontal bar as mine, colouration completely different to mind, but then i saw pics that looked very similar to mine, then others that looked different again! so their either seems to be a million and one colour variations or their are a heap of hybrid pics on the net.

[anchar]

Hi Alex,

I agree with Alex - definately black belt in the male. There's too much of a hint of a black girdle for a synspilum. The female could be syns. but it's hard to see if there is enough red through the face for this to be so.

merjo

If you got them from a LFS you could PM me to let me know which one as I may be able to help you better.

[Alex]

PM'd you buddy.

If they do turn out to be hybrids, it is very dissapointing because i paid a fair amount for these seeing as they were from a reputable store and a PCS sponsor which the PCS speaks very highly of. They were alos guranteed syns. :

[sorroz]

Well ill put my hand up and say they are not Synspilum also , the shape colouring and pattern are basically that of a Bifasciatum and the eye marking is the same as a Blackbelt.

Having kept and bred actual Synspilum, before Bifasciatum were even in the country,i can say with some confidence that the ones you have are not Synspilum.

Here is a link to some pics of real Synspilum. (hope it works ) :D Synspilum pics

Kevin

[YeW]

Alex -

I'm not sure they aren't hybrids either. However, can I ask you to post another 1/2 dozen photos? I suspect they have blackbelt or bifasc. in .

Cheers -

David.

[Barca888]

well i dont know any of the other species u r talking about, however when i saw the top pic i thought it was a blackbelt :\

[Alex]

I think I need to add something else. I went to anoter large well respected perth store yesterday, one because i needed a few things and 2 to see if they had any synspilum, for comparison to mine.

They had roughly 5 or 6 decent sized synspillum, by good size i mean 20cm+ and a few smaller ones. I made sure to check the point that L2H has pointed out. ALl bar 1 look very similar if not IDENTICAL in colouration to mine, including one in the display tank? the smaller ones were also sporting very similar colouration. Why is this? could they all be hyrbrids?

I should also had that this is the first board to say that they are hybrids? and i have posted them up on alot of US based boards some with thousands of members? again why is this? is Australia so caught up in calling a hybrid that everything is a hybrid these days? :

Im not tying to defend the fish i bought im just trying to widen my understanding of the species.

[Link2Hell]

Hi Alex

Vieja are one genera of Central American cichlids that have the most to loose,

as while juveniles the basic colour patterns are so similar it is near impossible

to correctly ID them

Synspilum are know to have been released into the hobby over the past few years with crosses from Bifasciatus, Hartwegi and Maculicauda to the point where Bifasciatus and Hartwegi are considered suspect in their geneology also

I can understand your dismay that the fish may not be what you or the LFS were lead to believe they were

My doubts only come from my experiences in knowing their confirmation and having kept these fish previously and the problems that Vieja species are having in the hobby with interbreeding over the past few years

I would like to onforward the pics to some American keeper/specialists to review

if thats OK with you Alex

L2H

[Alex]

Thanks for all your imput L2H it is greatly appreciated.

I am no expert on Vieja sp, so most of the stuff im learning is new to me.

I have alo spassed on the pics to some of the US based "experts" even passing them on to a few VERY respected ones. With mixed results so far. Some say hybrid some say pure for sure. I guess I will never know.

I may go to the 2nd lfs i mentioned and try pick out a couple that look a little different to mine and see how i go, try get some 100% pure ones or to the best of my abbility and breed those. The two fish pictured are now strictly display only fish and will not be poassed on to anyone and any fry porduced will be destroyed.

Kind of sad that i need to go through this great extent just to get a pure fish.

ps- sorry for any spelling or grammar errors, brain isn't working to well... :lol:

Alex

[Alex]

I should also add that i got some new shots of the male + a couple of the female tonight. The male looks a little different now that he has had time to settle in.

The read has gone alot brighter and has covered alot more of his head the line of black also seems a little less solid. will post them up tomorrow. :rolleyes:

[Link2Hell]

Just look at the points that we have brought up on the colour and markings

the fish should have a gold base colour on the body and a pink to rose red head colour

No spotting or marks on the head

remember what is around could be part of a shipment that was spread through the LFS over there at the same time as the ones you bought

L2H

[Alex]

Thanks again.

Checked him out their is VERY slight spotting underneat the eyes and towards the back of the gill plate none on the head directly. Almost the entire head has a tinge of pink. Base colour is a gold.

ONly thing that still may look a bit strange isthe black horizontal line, although that is becoming more broken by the day.

[Chinapete]

Alex,

This is my first reply on the forum because I think it is important. And I am a painfully slow typer. Most things I read are just repeats. I live in China and travel around Asia and I keep everything you ever dreamed about but canot get. It would make your hair stand on end if you could see what I have seen.

I believe your pair to be crosses. Sorry mate.

I kept them (synspilum) 10 years ago in Sydney and they were much different to yours. They had alot more gold and rainbow colours and were some of the most beautiful fish I ever kept.

Now the story gets bad.

I accidentally crossed synspilum / blackbelt.

Young, Did not Know, Did not have the tools we have today (internet) and I am almost certain I destroyed all (fed) all offspring. But what if?

I know that yours are not true for other reasons like bodyshape. synspilum are taller in the body-unlike blackbelts.

Please do not take this the wrong way- I like your work! and I know you are a good person. Maybe something pure will turn up. Hopefully!

China Pete.

PS I should tell you my 7 bar story one day!

[Alex]

Thanks chinapete.

Ive beento Asia many times and have checked the markets Ive seen the lot. :

[Gcichlid]

Hi

I keep synspillum,hartwegi,blackbelts and fennastratus (all quite similar but with

distinct coloration/marking differences).

I'd have to agree that the pics you showed did indicate some blackbelt marking in the fish and I havent seen any 'pure' synspillum with those markings.

Having said that - they are magnificent specimens that you've got there - they obviously look great in your tank and if youre not planning to breed them and onsell the fry - so what!

You've got a couple of beautiful big fish that give you pleasure.Enjoy.

Cheers

Nick

[anchar]

Hi Alex,

I've spoken to the shop in question - PM me and I'll fill you in

merjo

[Cichlabxr]

Hi Alex,

That is one of the biggest problems in this hobby, "purity". It is also sad that a lot of lfs owners and operators are not cichlidophiles. I also don't wish to rain on your parade but L2H and sorroz are very genuine blokes and very experienced. : Many of us here in Sydney make use of their vast knowledge.(especially when it comes to anything American) :D

Regards Martin

[Alex]

Thats ok. I fed the big female to my other fish anyway. I will keep the male though.

[discusdude]

I am sorry did you say you FED the female to your big fish? The female looks, sorry looked, very pure to me. While the male was clearly some kind of Vieja hybrid the female looked very different. Also the two were not from the same blood line were they? The chances of 2 hybrid fish from different places getting together are low.

Alistair