Water testing

[pjmowens]

Just wondering what test kits everybody is using.

I've been using the API kits since I started fish keeping (12 years) and up until the last six months been lacking in doing any regular testing. ( read none at all [emoji51])

The last six months or so has seen me try to monitor my water parameters through regular testing. The ultimate goal is to try to understand water chemistry and develop the ability to modify to suit my needs.

I've noticed that the nitrate generally measures zero or there abouts.

Having lost confidence in the API test I purchased an aquasonic no3 kit to do a comparison.

The test kit in question is well in date and had been shaken extremely well as I've read this to be a common problem.

Has anyone else good or bad experience with their test kits?

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[Buccal]

Nitrate is usually one of the easier ones to not get touchy as long as you don't have old indicators or old batches.

A crappy store with outdated indicators sitting for years in shops may be at risk of spoiling,, 

 

With those readings, you must be water changing almost everyday,, or have very low stock levels, or tank in newish,,,, I've always found api works best, and after six months I just chuck them away.

Now, to solve your problem,,, this mistake usually happens much easier in winter when thick solutions become even thicker,,,,,, so, I bet your solution starts working if briskly shake each bottle hard for one minute each before use,, just ensure uniform drops as a few bubbles in solution after shaking can occur.

So it's likely as simple as that.

You say you want to understand water chemistry,, then testing ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is part of the pollutants test,, but preferred perameters by the fish is the key,,,, balancing out correct levels of KH GH which ultimately dictates where the PH level sits.

Usually health and balance follows suit,,, keep water 27'c as as all valuable processes takes place much more efficiently at this temperature,,, beneficial bacteria have metabolic rates just like fish do :)......

[Alex]

I have always found API nitrate test kits to be a little dodgey. Ammonia and nitrite seem fine, but my experiences are like yours, always gives me a very low reading when I know from experience, my system and maintenance schedule that my Nitrate couldn't possibly be almost undetectable. 

[malrift]

Once my current api finishes will never use them again. Their gh has big issues too. My rain water went to over 100 drops. Then uses sera and 1 drop changed it. 

Nitrates always read wrong as well. I am going to try aqua one test kits as where I sell fish too has just started stocking them. But sera and jbl are definitely the best.

[Alex]

The Blagdon test kit seems alright, but is done with tablets which is a pain in the backside. 

[pjmowens]

I've shaken the hell out if the bottle and still no good.

The aquasonic seems good quality only downside is that it uses three reagents to complete the test.

I've been monitoring my kh and gh over the last two months and trying to see what effects water changes and fish waste etc cause with regards to levels.

My levels of both are definitely too low but im reluctant to use chemical additives. My kh will vary between 50-80 and my gh between 100-150. From your experiences what is the best buffering for kh and gh increase?

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[Buccal]

They aren't chemical dude,, they are salts and elements that are in their lake of origin.

You need it for superior fish health,,,, get your KH up buddy,, your fish will brighten up.

 

Funny what you guys say about api test kit,, I've only ever used these and always performed for me,, besides the real old ones.

Maybe they're starting to get dodgy just lately.... Hmm

[TangmanSam]

I've had a lot of inaccuracy using API tests, and changed to JBL and never looked back. Their tests provide precise and consistent readings, haven't had a problem to date (been using it for about 6 months now) 

[noxious_nasties]

Time to be constructive and post for the first time in a few years.

There is alot of misinformation going round here... first off everything of a physical nature in the world is a chemical... this includes 'salts and elements.' If someone is afraid to dose something, then it's a sure sign you haven't enough knowledge of what your actually adding to the aquarium. Buffers are 'chemicals additives' and it's pretty hard to stuff up your KH because they will precipitate, which preventing any potentially toxic effects from a solubility/osmotic aspect. The same can't be said with GH, but cichlids are fairly robust to changes of that as well, with gradual obviously being safer than rapid changes. A general recommendation is that your KH be between 8-15 and GH around 15 depending on if your keeping Malawi or Tanganyikan cichlids.

As for testing your water - sampling can be bias depending on where, when and how you take the sample. Try after a feeding and the levels will probably differ then if the sample was taken prior for example; same goes to areas such as dead spots compared to high flow areas.

Higher temps, while having a correlation to increased metabolism, can also lead to faster deaths. Can't remember my source for this sorry, but I believe it was of a scientific nature. Any speed increase in metabolic processes leads to faster destruction/reproduction of cells and so the more times this gets done, the more problems the fish will run into as it ages.

As for test kits with mulitple bottles, the company has probably opted to split the reagents, which either cannot be mixed or degrade faster if mixed - assuming they know what they're doing; you'd be surprised.

The API KH test kit will not expire, it only decreases minimally in accuracy (How do I know? I've done a fair bit of chemistry). The comments on viscosity are a myth. The density of the drop stays the same and thus the reagent volume and atoms within the volume remains constant - yes the drop can become thicker... think of honey, 1 teaspoon is still 1 teaspoon despite the viscosity being different in temperatures.

As for the GH, the reagents used in this API test are fairly instable and will result in rubbish data likely well before the test kit actually expires depending on how its stored. Even so, the accuracy would decrease substantially with time.

As for the nitrate kits, just a warning that both are likely to contain some wonderfully carcinogenic chemicals so avoid its not just the acids/bases that you want to avoid skin contact with. As for the Aquasonic, the reagents used in this are different to the API ones and as a result the chemical reaction taking place as well as the stability are different. This is likely why you have seen differences between the two brands performances.

Hope that helps,

John

[pjmowens]

Thanks for all the replies guys appreciate everyone's input.

I'm not afraid to add buffers I'm just reluctant as I would rather try to fix this with an ongoing process i.e. Coral rubble. Does any one have any experience using natural buffers or is it best to use products like aquasonics carbonic hardness generator.

With respect to the comments on drop densities with colder temp I believe the answer is yes the density of the liquid will be stronger with a decrease in temperature but in the small temp range we are talking likely not to have any measurable effect. The volume of the drop will remain the same.

All this started actually from a comment you made a while ago buccal advocating the importance of kh and gh to general fish health.

I've first decided to try and monitor my levels and am at the point now where I will need to start buffering.

Btw I'm not keeping cichlids Ice just got a couple of tropical exotics [emoji106]

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[noxious_nasties]

The solubility of coral rubble is very poor and as a result its impact is minimal in comparison to a specific additive you dose every water change or whenever you seek to raise your KH because the additives are much more soluble. While it does have some effect, it's not all that high and you'd likely need to supplement it with a dose of KH builder anyway in order to maintain KH levels within optimal cichlid parameters. 

If you add the buffer every water change it can hold its level for some time before you will repeat the water change so it's a fairly stable process as long as you dose consistently for the water being replaced.

Again, with regards to density, this is incorrect. Density = mass/volume. Mass won't change and you volume is fixed by the dropper of the bottle hence it will remain equal and thus so will your density.

 

John 

[pjmowens]

Thanks for the info John.

Have you found any generators that are better than any other? I assume they are all very similar in chemical compound?

The densities of fluids do change in correlation with temperature. The minuscule amount can be deemed negligible in this instance I believe.

Pat

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[noxious_nasties]

Hi Pat,

Seachem chemicals, while expensive, are generally very well thought out. I've found they aren't entirely naturally based (chemical composition), but they do the job required and to a high standard. This is particularly noticeable for tangs, whereby most buffers relying on carbonate systems alone won't get past a pH of around 8.3-8.5. Remember, pH affects solubility of chemicals and consequently its osmotic effect on cichlids, which can have an impact on egg/fry development. In saying this, and knowing the tendency for cichlid keepers to have higher stocked tanks, it's also worth mentioning that a higher pH can create fatal issues with ammonia if you get a sudden spike or are dealing with more sensitive species. That's a strong reason to have lower stocked tanks, where possible.

As to density, in theory you are correct, but in practice it's highly negligible for the purposes of test kits. I was basing my interpretation on the application at hand, but again you are correct in theory. In our case, the mass of a reagent will react with temperature by expanding/contracting the volume it takes. Given that a temperature swing from 15-30 degrees creates a mass swing of about 0.003% for a fixed volume of liquid and the minute volumes we are dealing with, it has little bearing on the kit performance. The precision of volume dispensed from the dropper bottle is likely to cause more error and variance, than a change in density for the volume of reagents used. Similarly, the volume of sample taken in their 5mL tubes will probably cause more error i.e. 50uL difference in the 5000uL (5mL) required causes a change of 0.01% - a realistic swing likely to occur when sampling.

Irrespective of this, even a change in reagent mass utilised for the test is unlikely to cause significant problems, protocols for water based analysis often have varying concentrations of reagents and most are in excess to ensure the reaction is completed and to a rapid pace. If we're really aiming for high results, then the standard lab methodology often calls for most reagents to be disposed of within 1 day- 1 week...

Cheers,

John

[PlecoSam]

One problem with any buffer I have tried, although seachem being the best is getting all of the granules to dissolve?  I do find seachem the best and when you factor in the amounts you have to use it usually works out to be cheaper. 

[Buccal]

It's the most concentrated on the shelf commonly,,,,, I use to use it when I was running my smaller breed room.

I think I might duck off, and grab me a hot cup of chemical,,, m, m.

 

". In saying this, and knowing the tendency for cichlid keepers to have higher stocked tanks, it's also worth mentioning that a higher pH can create fatal issues with ammonia if you get a sudden spike or are dealing with more sensitive species. That's a strong reason to have lower stocked tanks, where possible."

hmmmmmmm

[pjmowens]

Thanks guys I'll have a shop around for some of the seachem stuff

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[noxious_nasties]

Plecosam - Your problem with dissolving the powder may be due to the combination of chemicals within the mix reacting to form new compounds that are less soluble. That's one of the caveats to loading a powdered mix with so many different elements. 

[Buccal]

Or cut to the chase,,,,,,,,, jug or cup of hot water that you can still hold your hand in,, mix in buffering agent and stir thorough,,,,,,,,

Efficiency of dissolve rate is dramatically increased with heat.

[PlecoSam]

Warm water does help a bit but there is still a lot of powder left in the bottom of the mixing drum.

[Buccal]

Oh ok, have you tried a singular air stone placed in the center at the bottom ?

if you keep the water rotating it should help it dissolve better,, but likely you have already got this.

Also as you get the KH to higher levels, the last bit takes longer to dissolve because your approaching closer to saturation point.

I would tend to try hotter water...

[PlecoSam]

Not an air stone but a 5000lph pump in a 200l drum, and still there is powder left on the bottom.

[Buccal]

Yeah it must be that your water is already partially saturated with various salts to a certain degree,,,,  where that your adding extra  salts to obviously increase the buffering effectiveness,,, is in turn taking longer to dissolve because your getting closer to TDS peak.

total dissolved solids.

Which in most cases is a good thing as it must be all the goodies in the water that benefits fish anyway,,,, the problem would be encountered more obviously with people that keep fish that like hard water and try to get their water at the correct perameters.       I wouldn't even worry,, just carry on as normal,, if it seems to build up excessively,, try reducing dosage slightly, and within time if that doesn't work,, just leave it and carry on as normal, because it's not harming anything,, you won't overdose because it's not dissolving anyway.

when I lived in greenwood, the tap water was closer to neutral and buffers would dissolve like the clappers.

now I live in two rocks, and tap water has a much higher GH to start with,, the buffers do not dissolve any where near as fast as the greenwood tap water.

It could be that your gifted with many trace elements and other various things in your water already that's contributing to TDS.

Ive actually gathered much information of the koi sites around the world,, and I'm looking at making actual solid bricks of salts that buffer,,, so they dissolve over a even and lengthened period of time which serves as trickle dosing,, if I can get the mixture correct, it will only dissolve when the TDS levels drop in my water and instantly compensate,,, I'd just chuck it in the direct continuous flow of water in my sump.  

[PlecoSam]

Oh never bothered me, I do find seachem salts the best they also dissolve the best, that is of the ones I have tried, I have not tried them all.

[Buccal]

Yeah once you do the calculations on dosages and cost,, it's hard to look else where, especially having one of the closest assimilation to the lakes....

[mjoconr]

I been using 'Start Right 5Kg African Cichlid Riftlake Salt' from Tech Den and because my water had close to no KH I've been added 'Aquasonic Carbonate Hardness Generator' to increase the KH higher than the Start Right by it self can, mixing is done in a bucket of hot water and added slowly as I refill the tank.