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Are NLS foods really that good?


JLL

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I have NO commercial interest (other than being able to use it), and I'll happily recommend NLS. :hug:

RD sells it, but not in Australia, and anyone reading his posts will see, he allows you to make up your own mind, though he backs up everything with his well thought out intelligent input. What people need to do is simply approach this information from a neutral point of view, read it, and check out with other sources (which he often supplies) to see if what he says is either untrue or at the very least misleading. Then make a discission. I can smell bull*t from a mile away, and after a lot of careful neutral approach/learning about NLS, I believe in it completely as I have never detected any crap from it, nor from its creator. :lol1:

Nigel, I don’t understand why you have such beef about NLS? I know you have commented on the fact you are bombarded on internet sites (or words to that affect), but other commercial manufactures are perfectly entitled to do the same with their own food. They don’t do that, why? Because they really can’t compete with NLS!

I think it’s great that someone like RD is prepared to spend his time informing on web sites, and I don’t care if he makes a living out of selling NLS, I don’t see anything he says is a falsehood – and that’s the real issue here. Is NLS the best food in the aquarium market? Yes or no? Is RD selling it? Yes. Is RD telling lies or being misleading? No!

I remember well your opposition to feeding any kind of pellet food to Tropheus. No matter what was said to you, and no matter how many people we doing so successfully and told you (as I did), you still refused to accept that a pellet could be feed to Tropheus.

I think you have accepted that NLS can be feed not only without issue to Tropheus, but highly successfully too. How about you take on board other aspects of NLS that are being said, and accept that the food really is as good as people (like RD) say?

I think in the course of the years that you and I have kept fish, there has been some leaps and bounds in aquarium gadgets, bio-balls, FBF, UV are commen place now, where they when we started keeping fish? I think for the first time there has been a “leap and a bound” with what we feed our fish, and I think NLS is as far ahead as most if not all other commercially available foods as a FBF is to a handful of gravel.

Best regards mate, no offence intended, but you are really sounding like a broken record that is stuck playing a tune that is outdated. ;)

Craig

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Absolutely, opinions are all I was after though it seems to have moved on from there.

Seems i have opened quite a can of wor....... NLS here.

Anyhow, my fish dont seem to like it so far after a couple of weeks they are not keen at all yet but I will persist

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Hi Nigel -

I dont understand were you think the bias is? Read MY posts in this thread.

RD & Waruna sell NLS - this isnt something they've made a secret of. With regard to your queries about it being as good as "they" say - short of a study like I suggested - perhaps you should try some?

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I have Dave I could see no difference from any other brand of food that I feed fish. I tried it on a variety of fish except Tropheus and I would not feed pelleted food to them. So I can speak with some experience.

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board sponsors sell other brands & have commercial interests in them as well, why isn't someone plugging the hell out of Hikari, Sera, OSI or HBH?

-- removed potential libel --

YeW

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board sponsors sell other brands & have commercial interests in them as well, why isn't someone plugging the hell out of Hikari, Sera, OSI or HBH?

-- removed potential libel --

YeW

The reason is because they don't have the marketing approach that there seems to be with this particular product. :no:

Nigel - did you feed NLS exclusively, and if so, for how long?

Yes and for about 3 months

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Nigel - you are effectively doing what others are doing here (except in the opposite direction). You complain when other people offer their support to the product without evidence - and yet, you offer your opinion against the claims without evidence.

People can make up their own mind on the effects of the food in question - I suggest everyone interested buy some and try it (in the manner suggested by RD/Waruna - or in your own way).

As for NLS's marketting approach? That's a matter for them - I've no issue with this or other threads on NLS at ACE. Remember that representatives of NLS didnt start these threads.

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Posted Today, 11:52 AM

Nigel - you are effectively doing what others are doing here (except in the opposite direction). You complain when other people offer their support to the product without evidence - and yet, you offer your opinion against the claims without evidence.

OK Dave here is the test I did I will be honest it was a few years ago so let others be the judge of its true effects.

I had 30 albino Aulonocara eureka reds imported from Germany. I feed half NLS and the other half OSI cichlid flake. In the same conditions as far as water chemistry temperature and environment and after about three months I could see no difference. Those people that ended up buying them did not know I had done this and could tell no difference when they took them.

So you tell me if thats a fair trail.

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come on guys, David (Yew) is right....we should not make this another flame NLS thread.

JLL has not asked for scientific experiments comparing food X to Y, he wanted to hear about personal experiences with using NLS. We have given him a few of our personal experiences.

Waruna and RD have every right to defend their product with independent evidence they have procured over these years.

Let us not degrade this thread any further with unconstructive arguments ;) !

We are free to use NLS if we want to....no one is forcing us to use it.

I think people too easily give up on a food because it doesn't live up to their expectations or they have not given it a fair go before coming to such conclusions.

I stopped using NLS many years ago, even before RD or Waruna got involved when i had one isolated incident of bloat with my tropheus....but i also fed them other foods at the same time and i didn't have such strict maintenance regimes as i have nowadays. I know i had made the wrong decision then and now i have realised my mistake and have used the food for a year now with no problems....and yes even with tropheus :thumbup: !

Let us not persecute these poor guys who are so devoted to their product!!! There should be more people like that from the other food companies backing up the product they sell.

Dave

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Craig thats thing about opinions everyone has one and I have mine. ;)

And Nigel you are very welcome to your opinion :yes: . I have known you to be outspoken, but honest in your opinions and comments :thumb . But truly I think you are completely wrong on your NLS opinion :shock: . For example, you say you still won’t feed NLS (because they are pellets) to Tropheus. I have been using NLS with my Tropheus for years now. I started with 15, I’ve now lost count at over 50 (not to mention what I have sold). If there was an issue with feeding NLS pellets to Tropheus, don’t’ you think I would have seen it? Would my fish be sick, not breeding, getting bloat? None of this is the case.

I can’t say I have seen a huge amount of difference in my fish’s colour, but then my fish have always had good colour. I can’t see what is going on inside my fish, but I can listen to what I have been informed about NLS, I know for example that I can feed NLS equally to carnivores and vegetarians. If this wasn’t the case, I’d be having trouble with my fish. I now have over 50 young from your Kitumba. My Kitumba and my Tropheus are fed the same food. If there was an issue, do you think I would have had this sort of success? Success is also dictated by my fish husbandry of course, but the food you feed your fish is a lynch pin to husbandry.

But it’s also a case of listening to the information provided, scepticism is fine, we both know where that has come from in this industry :angry: , but we can’t tar everyone with the same brush just because others have proved to be dishonest and disreputable :zipit: .

I understand that you don’t like the way NLS is put up on web sites. That is probably just a …marketing situation much like Tupperware don’t sell to shops but decided to do “Tupperware Parties”. As I see it (there-be-it my perspective) these NLS threads are often driven by interested individuals, and it is great to have someone, there-be-it a self confessed amateur who is so clued up on fish nutrition such as RD. Even if he does sell it.

The food to me sells itself not only because of what I have read about it, and what I have experienced but because of the man behind the food Pablo Tepoot. For just one reason amongst others, you can send him an email, and HE will answer it. That blows me away. I can’t get email responses off some of my bosses at work at times, and here is someone on the other side of the world who I have never met and never will, who will take time out and reply to a dumb question from me. That is remarkable. He can’t do that because he wants my money for the drop in the bucket I spend on NLS. So why does he do it? I can only put it in terms I can understand, and think that he is the sort of person who will make the time for a nobody such as myself, and that speaks absolute volumes to me. It is not a huge leap of faith to believe that this basic attitude is expressed in his food quality. He wants to make a product that is first and foremost for the benefit of the fish. I think profit is second to him, but he must know if he makes the best product, the “world will beat a path to his door”. I think his first motivation is for the fish and the hobby.

I have send faxes to the Managing director for Asia for Eheim products (a John Neo), I’ve sent the same communication twice, still with no reply, and it's been months. Jee wizz - I wonder why he didn't respond?

Just forget for a minute that RD sells NLS. Try to listen to what he says about fish nutrition, and what are provided by other brands of fish foods - such as their source of protein, or the cheap nutrition-less fillers they use – often misleading by partially understood from reading the contents info on the food packaging. And then take on what is said about NLS. Try to see it from the point of view that yes RD may be biased, but he may also be reputable enough not to tell lies, not even necessarily due to the fact he dosn't want to, but because he has no need to.

Craig

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Craig I get eye strain reading your posts do you think just for me you could say what you want to say in less words mate. :lol3: As for the topic I have posted what I believe and also my experience with this product so I guess its for other to judge.

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well put craig, very well put indeed.

i am yet another that uses NLS as my preferred fish food. i have been using it for 2 years now and will continue to do so. if oyu havent used it, its well worth getting a sample. a couple of months ago there was smaller packs of NLS for sale at the NSW cichlid society meetings, and it was stupidly cheap. if you want to trial it, see next meeting if there is some there and give it a go. nothing beats trialling a food. its great to get opinions, nothing compares with results based on your own trials.

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Craig I get eye strain reading your posts do you think just for me you could say what you want to say in less words mate. :lol3: As for the topic I have posted what I believe and also my experience with this product so I guess its for other to judge.

Did you read it? Were you able to take any of it in, and understand my points? I blew my lunch break typing that, so I hope it was read by you.

Is that short enough? :roll

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Craig I get eye strain reading your posts do you think just for me you could say what you want to say in less words mate. :lol3: As for the topic I have posted what I believe and also my experience with this product so I guess its for other to judge.

Did you read it? Were you able to take any of it in, and understand my points? I blew my lunch break typing that, so I hope it was read by you.

Is that short enough? :roll

Hope thats all you "Blew" craig

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Craig I get eye strain reading your posts do you think just for me you could say what you want to say in less words mate. :lol3: As for the topic I have posted what I believe and also my experience with this product so I guess its for other to judge.

Did you read it? Were you able to take any of it in, and understand my points? I blew my lunch break typing that, so I hope it was read by you.

Is that short enough? :roll

Thanks mate thats better and to answer your question I did read it and understand your points. I will say no more about it other than that. :8

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well put craig, very well put indeed.

i am yet another that uses NLS as my preferred fish food. i have been using it for 2 years now and will continue to do so. if oyu havent used it, its well worth getting a sample. a couple of months ago there was smaller packs of NLS for sale at the NSW cichlid society meetings, and it was stupidly cheap. if you want to trial it, see next meeting if there is some there and give it a go. nothing beats trialling a food. its great to get opinions, nothing compares with results based on your own trials.

The benefit of NLS is more than a one month (or whatever) trial. The benefit comes to fish that eat it in the long term. And how that impacts on their health and longevity.

You and I being humans (semi), eat a lot of inappropriate food. There are a lot of fat unfit people about not only due to their lack of exercise, but due to what we consume - "you are what you eat". It is my understanding that NLS has been formulated with the LONG-TERM view to fishes health. That means while another food may (or may not) be consumed with greater enthusiasm, I'm sure if gave a child a choice between lollies and steak/veg which one they will eat first choice every time. That doesn’t mean lollies are better for them, it simply means we are motivated by the wrong things.

The same will be true of fish I believe, so don’t take enthusiasm as a guide to the appropriateness of NLS, though fish will consumeNLS with gusto. As mentioned my Tropheus get into the container I use to make sure the pellets and pepper grinded NLS all go into the tank in one hit, and not have the pepper grinded food floating.

If you use NLS for just one container, and don’t see any impact, there is more to NLS than just its ability to colour a fish up. It also makes sure they don’t’ look like they have been eating in McDonalds, and also makes sure their life span is not appropriate to someone who takes all their meals here also.

We know that our kids will be healthier if you give them their meat and potatoes, we’ll know they will be healthier on the inside where it is not so apparent. The same is true with NLS and our fish, wether we can see a benefit or not, they will be benefiting inside where we can have no knowledge, unless we do a necropsy – which will kind of defeat the purpose.

So the next time WAZ brings some NLS to a NSWSC meeting, buy it because you can get it, not for a one off trial.

Craig

Craig I get eye strain reading your posts do you think just for me you could say what you want to say in less words mate. :lol3: As for the topic I have posted what I believe and also my experience with this product so I guess its for other to judge.

Did you read it? Were you able to take any of it in, and understand my points? I blew my lunch break typing that, so I hope it was read by you.

Is that short enough? :roll

Thanks mate thats better and to answer your question I did read it and understand your points. I will say no more about it other than that. :8

Thanks Nigel, I can ask no more than that :thumbup:

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You and I being humans (semi), eat a lot of inappropriate food. There are a lot of fat unfit people about not only due to their lack of exercise, but due to what we consume - "you are what you eat". It is my understanding that NLS has been formulated with the LONG-TERM view to fishes health. That means while another food may (or may not) be consumed with greater enthusiasm, I'm sure if gave a child a choice between lollies and steak/veg which one they will eat first choice every time. That doesn’t mean lollies are better for them, it simply means we are motivated by the wrong things.

If you use NLS for just one container, and don’t see any impact, there is more to NLS than just its ability to colour a fish up. It also makes sure they don’t’ look like they have been eating in McDonalds, and also makes sure their life span is not appropriate to someone who takes all their meals here also.

We know that our kids will be healthier if you give them their meat and potatoes, we’ll know they will be healthier on the inside where it is not so apparent. The same is true with NLS and our fish, wether we can see a benefit or not, they will be benefiting inside where we can have no knowledge, unless we do a necropsy – which will kind of defeat the purpose.

I think the issue here is NOT whether or not NLS is a good food. The issue is that we are constantly bombarded with inferences that other foods on the market are akin to "McDonalds", use inferior ingredients and that NLS will result in long term benefits which "may not be apparent apart from at necropsy". One, many of the proponents of this theory have not kept fish on exclusive NLS diets for long enough to accurately state this, (I do of course know there are those like RD who may have used it for years) as fish lifespans typically should be in the range of at least 6-10 years. Two, there is no way of knowing whether a fish on an alternative diet would be in the same health.

There are so many people jumping on this bandwagon, saying look at my fish now, it is so much healthier, breeds more, and every ailment that ever afflicted their fish prior to NLS is attributed to diet, everything good after feeding NLS is attributed to NLS. Ever thought that your fish have matured a bit, got to the age where they have started colouring up and breeding, your fish husbandry practices have improved with experience, etc etc. In the majority of cases where people who tried NLS and did not find it such a big deal, these were hobbyists who were already feeding a good diet and keeping their fish in optimum condition, without the use of NLS. Now before we get all up in arms here, I am not saying that those who find benefits from using NLS were poor fishkeepers before. All I am saying is that anyone who dares to question the notion that NLS is not the be all and end all of fish foods is shot down, subjected to paragraph after paragraph of anecdotal evidence, references from obscure individuals, credentials flying left and right - yet when someone relates their experience, that NLS made little difference compared to the diet they were already feeding, (also anecdotal) you are bombarded with claims that you did not give it a chance, you have to feed it 100%, need to feed it longer, etc etc Both these points of view are just that, OPINIONS. Could it be that they may have got it "right" before NLS came along??

Coming back to the inference that other products on the market are somehow fatty, high in undesirable substances etc. Where is the proof of that? In fact, fatty acids are an essential part of a healthy diet and a distinction needs to be made between different types of "fat". This is again true for homemade foods, yet there is an implication that there is a magical combination of nutrients which is "perfect" and that no other will come close. In my opinion, animals have a range of nutrient intake concentrations which will give them a good state of health, and there does not have to be an accurate to the n'th degree nutritional profile to guarantee this state of health - notwithstanding the unsubstantiated "fact" that NLS is claimed to be the epitomy of fish nutrition. Is there a way to feed a diet not including NLS that isn't deficient in any particular nutrient? I believe the answer is yes. That there are many ways to achieve that goal, and everyone has their individual preference and belief as to what works for them.

I am sure that there are many who use NLS to great effect, no doubt about it. Now that it has almost halved in price, I don't think you would go wrong using it. Personally, I just find it amusing that there is a crowd of NLS proponent almost cultish in their defensiveness of the product. If this product truly was that much better than everything else on the market, there wouldn't BE anything on the market. There are plenty of journal articles which have conducted feed trials for the raising of nutritionally exacting marine ornamental fry, none I have read have used NLS in a scientific, controlled way. I haven't read every single study ever published, but I would hazard a guess and say that the majority of feed trials scientifically conducted have not used NLS. There are certainly foods developed within aquaculture that are as complete as NLS, and the nutritional profiles of these are typically readily available. There is usually even discussion around the actual raw ingredients that go into the foods. Yes, in some cases aquaculture will have different goals than hobbyist culture, but I am referring to those cases where the nutritional profiles have to be pretty spot on - certain species of ornamental marine fry.

For what it's worth, here is my take on things.

Is NLS a good all round fish food? Yes.

Are there ways you can achieve a nutritionally complete diet without NLS? Yes.

Do I feed one food exclusively with good results with most freshwater fish? Yes.

Is this food NLS? No.

Should NLS be put forward to people whenever a food or nutrition thread on these forums arises? Yes.

Should it be pushed so aggressively, with little regard for other opinions? No.

And again, I am not saying that everyone does the aggressive hard sell for NLS. Many ppl have just said, yes I use it, I find it good, this is why.. However there are occasions when an NLS proponent is so affronted by a differing opinion and so defensive, so unwilling to hear out others... I just think that... for lack of a better description.. is irritating.. :lol3:

No, there are no proper trials to prove the claims of NLS. That does not mean that I think you cannot put forward your opinion that it is better than everything else. However, and this isn't directed at anyone specifically, just bear in mind that until it is proven - it is just your opinion, and others are entitled to theirs. Everything we are discussing here is anecdotal - everyone's experience is different - your mileage will vary...

I would encourage everyone to take in what is said on forums, but in the end, you will need to make up your own mind based on your experiences, and really weigh up the integrity of the information put forward in an objective manner as best you can. :)

My 2 (200?) cents, :)

Vincent

Another thing, there is an oft quoted study on african cichlids fed NLS and trout chow and developing fatty livers... Firstly, trout chow is not what most of us feed our fish. Secondly, not all lipids result in fatty livers. There are vastly different types of lipids all grouped under the label of "fat" and many are essential to health.

This is one study which is highly misleading in the way it is often quoted, as in saying NLS is low in fat therefore it is good. Other foods are high in fat therefore bad. Not true. Depends what type of fats. We must be very careful making these assumptions and inferences.. leads to the worst kind of science... pseudo science :D

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Vince, as someone who is a huge fan of NLS foods and used them exclusively before I went fishless, that may well be the most balanced and well thought out post on the subject I have ever read!

Even as someone who will always recommend it as (I believe) the best fish food available on the market, I too am well and truely over the one eyed 'push' from some of the proponants of the products. Almost to the point where I become embarrassed to display my agreeance... (End of sentence removed as it didn't really express what I meant, and could have been misconstrued, replacement sentence in the making)

Thankyou.

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It is good to see a non-"Pro-NLS" post that has had a bit of thought put into it :)

So much in this hobby is opinions based. Now there is nothing wrong with that, as long as people are willing to listen, learn and accept new things. I often tell customers to listen to what everyone says, take everything with a grain of salt and work out what works for you best. Just because someone has had success doing things a certain way doesn't at all mean that you will.

I use and recommend NLS as I have had very good results personally with it, as well as seeing that a lot of other people like and recommend it. While I don't think that NLS is necessarily the "best" food available on the planet, I think it is as good if not better than the vast majority of commercial fish foods, and I am happy with feeding it as a complete diet to a range of fish at the price that it sells for. This doesn't mean that I will not listen to anyone else's opinion, and possibly change my opinion (as I have with various other types of product over the years.)

For the moment, I find NLS to be the best all round commercial food that I have access to, and I am happy with the price of it, so I use and recommend it.

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Thanks guys, firstly i must apologise for the long and rambling nature of the post. I have not had much sleep over the past few days and I guess for the lack of a better description, went a little overboard lol. Yes, I get grumpy on 2 hours of sleep a day lol

Secondly, just to clarify, I agree with everything Pacco has mentioned and what he has written is in my opinion a fair and thought out opinion of NLS.

If anything it is definitely one of the most convenient foods to feed, because you can feed it to anything without any worries.

Cheers

Vincent

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