Jump to content

Filtration: Nitrogen cycle: Water changes


johnwilly1000

Recommended Posts

hey guys i have an 8x2x70cm(H), at the moment i keep:

1 saratoga 30cm

5 frontosa 7bar

1 gold spot pleco

i use 1 ehiem canister filter 1500L/H i bought from AOA. airstones x 3, 2 heater one on each end, im running the inlet and outlet of CF on one end of tank.

my Q is:

is it more efficient to run CF inlet & outlet on opposite ends?

is this CF enough filtration for all my fish even when they are fully grown up?

ps tank water conditions is very good and very clean at the moment?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have more filtration than that on my standard 3 footers if that's any indication of whether yours is enough.

i would think you need a not more water turnover than that. a second canister AND a powerhead maybe?

i'm no expert on big tanks. but i think that you'll obviously have a total dead zone away from where the inlet and outlet are.

also, will the fronnies and saratoga go together?

grace

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With big fish like that you want to be turning over the water 4 times an hour (debatable). 2 Fluval cannisters like yours would service a 750lr tank.

Anthony cool.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think given the price of your fish another eheim canister would be a most useful insurance policy wink.gif.

Get one of the professional range 2226 or 2228. Nice filters both.

HTH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

its just that i thought it would be easier if i use 1 canister which makes easier to do maintenance.

why would i need so much turnover when i have heaps of aeration from airstones.

and as long as im doing water changes once a month isn't this good enough

thanks guys and gals

Link to comment
Share on other sites

in my opinion for a tank that size and with valuable fish like those, you are massively underfiltered. I have 2 x Eheim Pros and a sump on my 5 ft x 2 ft x 18 inch tropheus tank, which is considerably smaller than your tank.

Water quality comes from a number of factors but primarily from abundant biological filtration and regular water changes. In short you do not have much bio filtration and another canister will add more biological capability to your tank. Add to that the fact that you are only doing a water change once a month and I'd say medium to long term you are heading for trouble. I change 30% of my water on a weekly basis, which helps to reduce the nitrate in th etank and also assists in removing the rubbish that the filters have noit picked up.

As far as airstones are concerned, airstones break the surface and assist in oxygenating the water but they do not clean it and they do not biologically filter it.

Surely if you have invested in a large tank and in valuable fish, you are not going to neglect regulkar water changes and sufficient filtration because you are too lazy to do the regular maintenance..... tongue.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It may sound like hard work but doing weekly water changes isn't that bad once you get into a routine. You may think that monthly water changes are enough but if you do them weekly your fish will be happier, healthier, grow faster and live longer.

Concerning your filtration issue. Your tank is massive, therefore large filtration capacity is what's needed. If you don't invest in adequate filtration you may one day experience big losses due to a peak in ammonia, simply because the bio load from your fish will be too much for the filter to handle.

You have a tank that has the potential to be absolutely awesome, don't risk it and the health of your fish by trying to make shortcuts. It's not worth it.

Have a shop around, there are many places such as Trans Aquarium and Age of Aquariums that sell Canister filters at great prices.

Good luck with it,

Jamie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

as long as im doing water changes once a month isn't this good enough
...hmmmm, good enough for what exactly??? dry.gif

I am just stunned.

Why invest in a great tank and some very nice fish(even though their water-needs are entirely different) and then turn into a tight-buM when it comes to filtration and effort??

The idea that with 1 canister you do less work in a tank that size is flawed. In fact you would have to clean that filter more often, than you would if you had a Large sump-filter, because it would be struggling to keep up all the time. If you have 2 canisters you can clean them in an alternating pattern...1 every 2-3Mths depending on feeding, etc and filter-efficiency

I would be thinking about an Eheim 2260 as an addition to your current filtration as well as an internal filter for circulation...or building a sump-filter.

If it is too much effort to put a hose into a tank and suck on the end(each week)...or turn a tap on...then maybe a Betta or a Crazy Crab is a better way to go?! Would you like to live in the same room for a month without fresh air??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ok today i connected a 2000l/h internal filter, didn't go by canister due to money etc....

i really like the last comment said by mazimbbwe where buying 2 canister, u change water alternatly once every 2-3 months.

if i bought another canister wouldn't that use a lot of electricity to my already 2x300w heater

1x CF 1500l/h

airstone

light

which one usually wastes the most money of all the equipment, followed by which one

can someone who has tested the use of electricity bills give me info?

thanks

I live with parents so must not go overboard with electricity bills thats why im not going all out on equipment

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you got enough current/agitation in your water you dont even need an air stone (debatable too - depending how much stock in your tank/water temperature).

i hardly even turn on my light only when feeding and maintenance etc

some ppl even change water 2 x 30%-40% a week when it comes to arowanas

i think you cant go wrong with eheim mate- they are filtration leaders.

Tam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Mazimbwe (except for the point about the water requirements. I haven't come across to many who would scoff at keeping plecos in alkaline waters LOL.giftongue.gif )

However, Johnwilly, I think you have missed the point ENTIRELY. HIs point about the second cannister did not concern changing water. Water changes should be done as regularly as possible. In that tank I wouldn't let it be less frequently than 30% a fortnight. Once the fish are larger and dirtier I think you should be looking at weekly 30% or more.

That 2000 litre internal filter, is only really creating water movement, and possibly doing a little mechanical filtration. Sure it probably has a little sponge for the intake but you obviously have not understood the crux of what has been put forward for you - BIOLOGICAL FILTRATION and how it works. You absolutely NEED MORE biological filtration. This means you need filters with medium which has plenty of surface area for beneficial bacteria to develop on. You NEED another cannister filter, or alternately, you could build/buy a sump and overflow box system.

You must have spent quite alot of money to get this tank running so far, why skimp on things now? At the very least, for added bio-filtration, replace the airstones with large air driven BIOLOGICAL SPONGE FILTERS.

As for what uses the most power, that depends on what brand of item you chose. Cheaper equipment will generally cost you more in power in the long term. A general rundown would be heaters, lights, filters (cannister/internal), airpumps. But there are too many variables to say that is concrete. For example in a stable warmish temperature, heaters will hardly need to heat, so they wont consume as much power as in a poorly insulated cooler spot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Johnwilly,

Here are some things to consider:

1. Leave filtration as is, have lower electricity usage and have sick or dead fish.

2. Raise significantly your filtration and water movement, personally I don't think another standard canister will even cut it, you need one (or two) of the BIG Eheims or a sump with an adequate pump. Have a bigger power bill. Have happy and healthy fish.

3. Sell your 8 footer if you don't think you can provide the adequate filtration and do the water changes and get something smaller.

You need to know that whatever size tank you have you must be prepared to do weekly or at worst fortnightly water changes to ensure the health of your fish.

Jamie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

big fish=lots of feeding=lots of defacating=need for adequate filtration to handle bio-load=fortnightly 30% water changes (IMO).

Big tank=Power Usage=Money

Sorry if it sounds like im being a bit short, but if you buy a tank as big as that and have fish that expencive i would have thaught you would have done considerable resurch of the requirements to keep your fish healthy, and the sacrifices you will need to make. Anthony thumb.gif

PS:I agree with ducksta about the power filter only creating current. two words come to mind 'Nitrogen Cycle'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i really like the last comment said by mazimbbwe where buying 2 canister, u change water alternatly once every 2-3 months.

hmmm....if I had've actually said that Ducksta would have mocked me rather than giggling with me about how much Fronty's like soft water. blink.gifzipit.gif

I am starting to wonder about the validity of your question because, as Ant proposed, who goes out and gets a Large-tank and some expensive fish without even understanding the way Biological filtration works or the Nitrogen-Cycle?...and then to be worried about the power at Mom & Dad's? blink.gif , never mind the room in their house that they lost. laugh.gif

Filtration is what you need more of, everybody has told you the same thing.

Spend the money on a Eheim-2260(The Pro2's will not be enough IMO), you will still need to change 200Liters of water each week rolleyes.gif to keep the water quality high but at least the fish will not have their own Poo filtering through their Gills.

Have you had any fish B4?

What is the tank and the fish worth to you?...and how much did it all cost you to buy, all up?

If you are genuine and I have it all wrong...you better brace yourself.

There are plenty of bills on the way, either pay for a 2260 or expect to replace your fish quite often.

Either way it will sting your wallet.

Big toys take big dollars.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK guys and gals Thanks for all ur help!!!!!!!!!!

answer to u guys Q:

I've been into fish for 2years now, only 3 footer tank though never a tank this big

Just recently upgraded to 8footer cause wanted bigger fish,

Didnt know i still had to change water every week with bigger tank,

I do test water every week and thought if nitrate doesn't go above 25ppm i dont need to do water change.

I do understand that these fishes are in diff ph condition but i've asked people on forum and they say no probs. (my ph is about 7.5, temp 28oC)

The tank is situated in my room (im greedy) so my room is a bit squashy

Cant do sump system yet cause dont trust people drilling my tank without cracking it, and dont like the sound of hang on box style cause not as efficient as having holes drilled. (maybe get holes drilled in future and do sump)

anyway i will go get bigger CF, do water changes 25% once a week

Q: is it ok not to do water change when nitrate below 25ppm or are there other pollutants we cant tell?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its like someone said here before, You wouldnt want to breathe the same air for a week or 2 no matter how " clean " it tested.. Same as your fish, they like regular fresh water changes.. Keep them happy and vibrant, dont just keep them with minimal life support smile.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mate,

I reckon you need to listen to what's being said on here. If power cost is a concern, don't stress. i'm running 6 tanks all on independant heaters, filters (at least 1 per tank) and lights, and i reckon it's contributing at most $100 per quarter to my bill.

i'm looking at setting up a salt tank at the moment - a nano reef - in a 30gallon 2 foot tank, and i am putting in more filtration into that than you are talking about for your 8 footer. the more filtration, the less water changes.

i wouldn't think that one change a month on your 8 footer would be suffiecient. as stated by the others, big fish = big waste. i reckon a minimum of fortnightly with more filtration and you'd have moderately to good quality water. after a month, i reckon it'd stink (that would peeve the parents as much as the power bill i reckon!) and your fish would be very unhappy and prone to illness.

powerhead seems like a good idea. if you can get a pre-filter fitting for your current canister i reckon you should make it a biological only filter. so just have media in it, not mechanical filtration (ie wool).

what's your substrate?

honestly, i think you need a lot more water movement/circulation and a lot more filtration. ok - i made this awesome (back me up people that have seen it!) canister filter for biological only for $30 worth of materials + a powerhead.

email me if you want details on that. that could save your money, can provide a lot more filtration (it's size is limited to the power of the powerhead really), and is fun to make.

Cheers

Grace

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Hey guys just thought i'll update on whats been happeing with my tank.

aro = 45cm

fronts = 10cm

pleco = 15cm

i've been running my 8footer for 5months now, with 1x 2000l/h internal power filter, 1x 1500l/h canister filter. 2x 300w heaters

once a month water change of 50%, and cleaning out all filters.

so far they seem very healthy and fine.

I think in future when all fishes fully grown i'll be looking into getting sump system done.

i know all u guys will give me critisicm, but so far it seems fine. i work so i dont have a lot of time on my hands to do water changes every week. but dont get me wrong i still love my fishes especially my silver arowana its given me heaps of luck

nitrite and nitrate and ammonia has always been low

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't say we were giving you crap but giving you advice smile.gif. Sorry if it sounded a bit harsh. I wrote an article recently that explains the basics of the nitrogen cycle, if you have a read of it you will see why we were all concerned with your setup.

http://www.cichlids-aust.com/articles.html

Anthony

PS: The article is down the bottom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geez we need a waterchange in here the testosterone levels are obviously way above 25ppm LOL.gif

My recommendation is to get a second canister primarily because it will allow you to clean them on an alternating cycle and reduce the potential for a spike each time.

As to whether you need more, bigger, better filtration then while my personal preference is to well and truly over filter the evidence I see around the place indicates that keeping fish numbers and feeding under control and keeping water changes up is actually far more significant than the volume/size of the biological filtration.

(but do keep an eye on the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels)

It appears that the bacteria involved in the nitrogen cycle converting ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate are actually remarkably efficient.

I have massively filtered systems that have almost identical water conditions and need water changes at pretty much the same time as another rack that by all accounts is horridly under filtered; none of them ever show measurable ammonia or nitrite levels.

airstones break the surface and assist in oxygenating the water but they do not clean it and they do not biologically filter it.

if there's any sort of substrate in there then they do: bacteria colonize the tank walls, substrate and any other surface they can get to so any water flow over these surfaces is taking nutrient(ammonia and nitrite) rich water to them. For the setup being described here I'd expect that this is the bulk of the bilogical filtration involved.

You don't think they filter all those fresh water lakes and rivers with huge big canisters do you? blush.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems crazy to me to only concentrate on canister filters ........they can fail also! To a lot of young fellas they can be very expensive,leading to possibly underfiltering a tank! There are many air driven options that are very inexpensive ..ie...box filters........sponge filters....dropside corner filters etc

The later being the choice for my fishroom.

I have a few tanks of fish from fronnies to tropheus and all are filtered with dropside filters ....i personaly have found these to be the most efficient in every way.......and foolproof.

But i agree that 1month between waterchanges is far too long ........if you dont have time for waterchanges .how long do you spend actually looking at your fish ?

Cheers Kevin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i do check nitrite nitrate and ammonia level and its always in the good zone. i look at my fishes quite a lot actually cause its directly in front of my eyes when i wake up and when i get home from work.

its in my bedroom. The thing is that im quite lazy to do water changes, my fishes all look healthy and eat well, i only feed twice a day. so i dont find the need to change water if i dont need to.

also water is always crystal clear

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes good comment Tiger,

It seems crazy to me to only concentrate on canister filters ........they can fail also! To a lot of young fellas they can be very expensive, leading to possibly underfiltering a tank!

It is probably something i should add to my article. There are cheaper ways to allow biological filtration in an aquarium, undergravel filtration is one that comes to mind as well as a couple you mentioned.

Anthony thumb.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi John

As laurie has already pointed out

"My recommendation is to get a second canister primarily because it will allow you to clean them on an alternating cycle and reduce the potential for a spike each time."

You should still practice this with your internal and cf. Don't clean them to gether but alternate the cleaning say, every two weeks.

Also it was suggested that you place a sponge filter rather than just an airstone again a very good suggestion and maybe this sponge filter is then cleaned everytime you clean one of the other filters.

With these three filters working together and being cleaned alternately you should maintain a fairly good water quality even if you aonly change water ones per month.

Good luck

Andreas

Link to comment
Share on other sites

golden rule for fisho's

25 to 30 % weekly water change regardless

while keeping large fish!

good filtration is a must!

water quality a must!

once you have established your fishtank,then go out and buy your fish!

an asthmatic cannot breath properly without the assistance of a puffer!

neither will your fish with poor filtration & once a month water changes!

treat your fish as if they were part of your family

good luck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...