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</DIV><H1>Wasting? Any Answers?</H1></DIV><DIV id=Qtextbox><P><STRONG>Author: CThompson</STRONG><BR><BR>For a number of months now I have had an issue that has primarily affected only female Cyprichromis leptosoma "Malasa". The first sign of trouble for a fish is when they take in food, they spit it out, then rush to another piece, spit it out, and so on. Their appetite is good, they just don't swallow anything. As time goes on, perhaps a week or more, they lose appetite, and no longer pursue food, live, frozen or flake. They become lethargic, and waste away. After I lost maybe a dozen female Malasa (it takes a month or more for a fish to die), I had a male come down with the above described behaviour (I took him out and killed him), and in addition, he lost his colour. It was then I cast my mind back to the four original fish I purchased, three girls and a boy. The boy that just died looked like the one that I originally purchased that also died, the original male I didn?t kill, and when he died he had a deformed body. The body became ?S? like when viewed from above. I have seen no evidence of ragged fins or body ulcers, on any fish, which from what I can ascertain is symptomatic of TB.

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My Malasa are in one tank of a system of three. In anther tank in this system, I have Cyprichromis leptosoma "Mpimbwe". The adult fish seem to be unaffected, though the young are not immune. I have lost ten or more from a batch of 14 young. All with the above symptoms. One of my four females, has shown the first signs of not eating (spitting out food), but has never continued with the ?disease? process. She has been retarded in her growth, though, and she is the only girl not to have spawned. She showed definite improvement after the system was treated with Furan-2.

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In the months I have had this problem, I have dosed with the antibiotic, Flagyl. This was mixed in with flake food for three days, and with the water. I have also used Sterizin, Octozin, and lastly another antibiotic called Furan-2. The last one seemed to have some affect, and I had some fish start to eat again, and after two or so weeks they are still eating. A couple of fish were not improved, and I took the step of disposing of the any non-eating fish.

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I was hoping wondering if somone could inform me of their opinion, if what my fish had was TB (even though they were not showing signs of frayed fins or body ulcers)? Or this Wasting disease I have read about? Not sure if they are one in the same, or two different problems?

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On the assumption that what ever disease I had is now passed, could these survivors still be infected and act as carriers to any new fish (Malasa) I put into the system?

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I have a further twenty or so Malasa that I have raised, that are now starting to colour-up. They were stripped from their mother's in this infected system, removed from this system, and have never come into contact with anything from this infected system since. These twenty or so fish are completely healthy with robust appetites.

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Interestingly, in this same system, I have had three (all female) Neolamprologus brevis die, but with slightly swollen bodies that became several shades lighter in colour than usual. There breathing rate had increased, and near death, their eyes were somewhat "popped". They also went through the above described medications, without apparent improvement. I don't know if this is the same issue as the Malasa, but thought it noteworthy.

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Craig

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</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: loyiie</STRONG><BR><BR>I have exactly the same problem with my Red Empress. The only food that it seems to go after is bloodworms but it's unable to swallow. It just stays in one corner and hardly swims. The only other thing is that every night when the lights are out on the tank and the whole room (say 1am at night) then my red empress would start spinning around uncontrollably like a helicopter blade and then sink belly up at the bottom of the tank. But every morning when there is a bit of sunlight in the room then it'll just stay around the top corner of my tank acting "normal" again.

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I've treated him with Furan, EM tablets, triple sulfur and salt baths but to no avail. I'm surprised that it's lasted this long (it's been OVER a month). As yet none of my other fish have been infected and I'm now deciding on euthanasia. I've researched on most diseases on cichlids but I still haven't found one that matches mine. I'm also wondering if it's TB. But because I'm new to cichlids, I've got no idea what it is.

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The only other thing is that the Empress' eyes are a bit cloudy but not as bad as a fish with cloudy eye disease. Any ideas on what I should do??

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mattyc25</STRONG><BR><BR>I recently had a similar wasting disease (check old posts)as my malawis had sunken bellies. Also, working in my LFS I have learnt much about treatments that do and dont work. We had a very similar ailment affecting some rainbowfish resulting in bent spines, etc. New fish in this particular tank sometimes got this illness, sometimes didn't. And some fish were fine for months on end with no symptoms at all, while others got similar symptoms to those described. In both cases we tried many different treatments, and the only one that cured my fish and the shops fish was tetracycline. I am now a big fan.

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Matt

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: ajk</STRONG><BR><BR>hey guys,

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sorry to hear about ur fish but i was wondering what would initiate such a problem?

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andrew

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: loyiie</STRONG><BR><BR>I've got no idea whatsoever what may have caused this problem in my Red Empress. I've been doing everything by the book since I've setup this tank ie weekly water changes of 20% and maintaining the filter media every 2-3 weeks and the water conditions are close to perfect. I've had my Empress since it was 2cm long and it's been growing rapidly until it reached about 12cm and has always been hoggin most of the food until now. It was colouring up really nicely but sadly it's lost a lot of its colour and has gone a pale grey with dark patches. You can still see shades of red on its body and a blue hue on it's head but it's far from the colour of a healthy one.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: kevsta</STRONG><BR><BR>I had the same problem with my colony of adult Discus and they all perished eventually to the disease that you describe. I treated with salts, flagyl, praziquantel, octozin, raised temperatures but not luck. I lost them one by one over a period of 6 months.

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When I look back I suspect it could have been transmitted by a new fish that I introduced to the aquarium which showed no signs of illness at the time, or it could have been the live black worms from a dodgy source.

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I've given up on discus and am now trying my luck with malawis and tanganyikans.

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K.

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</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: CThompson</STRONG><BR><BR>

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It looks like there are no answers out there.

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Normally, I have no disease issues with any of my fish. So unfortunately, I don't feel particularly confident when issues arise. Perhaps if I just taken out the male, that was I now believe the carrier of this issue into my tank (sourced from a friend, and I didn't quarantine it), and introduced him to a hammer, I wouldn't still be having ongoing concerns. I hope my problem is over, as the fish are all still eating. I tell you what though, woe to any fish that has an off day and decides not to eat....

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Is tetracycline an antibiotic? It sounds very familiar, is it a human medicine? Where is the best place to purchase it?

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Craig

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Arj</STRONG><BR><BR>Craig,

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i did a search in google and found out that it is a broad spectrum anitbiotic. It shows antiprotozoal activity. Humans can also use it. "Tetracycline is prescribed for many different infections particularly respiratory tract infections due to Hemophilus influenza, Streptococcus pneumonia or Mycoplasma pneumonia. It is also used for Rocky Mountain spotted fever, typhus, chancroid, cholera, brucellosis, anthrax, syphilis and acne"

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I think matt just purchased it from the aquarium. I'll find out the brand name.

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Arj.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mattyc25</STRONG><BR><BR>I work in an aquarium and got it from there. SHould not be hard to get, we order it easily from several places. I think the brand I used was 'aquamaster' but working off memory there.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: loyiie</STRONG><BR><BR>I just bought some tetra cycline at my LFS (quite expensive... it costs around $25 for a small bottle). It's called Bio-Tet and it's made by a company called Aquasonic.

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It doesn't have any instructions about the duration of the dosage except that it's 1 tablet per 20L.

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Matt, can you tell me how I should administer this treatment?? ie repeat dose after 24 hrs, or do a 20% water change etc??

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I just isolated my fish yesterday and treated it with tetracycline. It hasn't shown any improvement yet so I'm not sure if I should repeat the dose with/without a water change etc.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: CThompson</STRONG><BR><BR>loyiie,

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In case you don't get any answers to your question. If it were me, and I had the choice to make, I would leave the antibiotic in the system for about three days, water change say 50%, then dose again. Bearing in mind that this is an ?educated? guess, and only to be followed if no others give detailed instructions.

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My thinking is that, as it is an antibiotic, any bugs that are not killed in the first dose, may have been weakened, but will come back stronger, with the possibility of immunity to the antibiotic in following generations. Hitting them a second time, while weakened, my be better, than one dose alone.

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As for my fish, they don't seem to be showing any signs of the problem that they have been having for month (such a relief), and I am tempted to put my other Malasa in with them. My hesitation is that my fish in the "infected" system, my have built up an immunity to the problem, where as if I put my other Malasa in there, they will come down with the problem, and it will start all over again.

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Craig

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</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mattyc25</STRONG><BR><BR>My bottle had no directions either apart from one tablet every 20 litres. I think thats the brand I used as well, If it is a yellow label with some blue on it it is the same one, same directions anyway.

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I dosed for 5 days then did a half water change and filtered with carbon. The fish handled the medication very well, no losses and improvements in their sunken bellies in about 2 days, with apparent full recovery in about 4. I cut back on feeding during this time, and kept the water very very well aerated with a power filter with venturi, a canister outlet and a large limewood air-stone connected to a big air-pump.

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Matt

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Smokey Jewel</STRONG><BR><BR>Well I've got it too...

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After reading the above I've come to the conclusion that I too have this disease in my main display tank! Lost my best male yellow in 2-3 weeks by the above symptoms. Followed by a yellow female, last night i disposed of a 4cm electric blue.

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As many of the others have said, my tank conditions too have been very good for the last 12 months or so since I moved to the place Im living now (penrith). Have had no problems to my knowlege other than aggression.

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I'll go looking for that med today & hopefully this will be the only fish I will have lost.

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Smokey.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: CThompson</STRONG><BR><BR>I definately had improvement with Furan-2 which I purchased from Fish4U. I still don't think my fish are over the problem. I killed a young leptosoma Mpimbwe last week, and my hammer and I have been eyeing up a half grown Malasa lately.

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Craig

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: AndrewP</STRONG><BR><BR>I have heard about your itchy hammer finger Thompson ha ha. Re those discus it was very likely to be internal worms, veyr common in discus with the same symptoms as this wasting disease. Feeding a wormer will do the trick. to late now though of course.

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: YeW2001</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi Guys -

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I am tank sitting some of Alex's C. leptosoma 'Mpulungu' and I have seen this problem in leptos. This disease seems to be common to a few species.

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When I got Alex's leptos there were two thin ones. One died quite quickly (round a week) - one, a subdominant male, is still thin. He won't eat with the other leptos - but will eat algal wafers when the lights are off (when they are on he hides from the dominant male)...

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I have only seen this in leptos, nimbochromines and some of the lake victorian cichlids - no luck treating it myself.

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Thanks for all the ideas

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</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Kayne</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi All,

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I too have had this type of thing affect my fish.

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In a Tang community it seemed only the Cyps were affected.

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I used an antibiotic with no success I ended up doing the "catch and freeze" method.

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1 little warning to those using medications and bacterial filtration..... The 2 don't mix.

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Cheers

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Adam

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Smokey Jewel</STRONG><BR><BR>All,

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One thing I did forget to mention is that I did not have this wasting problem a few months ago. And the only thing to change in this time was the addition of a few salousi, and 5 Auloncara "otter point" juv's.

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The only other point to mention is that at about the same time I started using rain water whn conducting weekly 10% water changes. I normaly do not do this buts been raining lots and thought it a good idea. I have since stoped this idea and will use tap water again.

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However I have used rain water (collected off garage roof into buckets, very tedious) in both of my other tanks too! But no problems in either of them, containing convicts and more Otter points....

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I'm going back to doing things by the book, and hopefully things will improve. I don't regret it though, (my fishy decisions that is) its all part of the learning curve. I would not have it any other way....I love my fish! I'll admit I do have a few favorites, but they all have a very special place in my home, just ask my wife! She'll tell you alll about it......

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Smokey.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Arj</STRONG><BR><BR>So if this is like an internal parasite would it be better to treat the fish with metriodonzale (or what ever its called). ie put it in/soak in food and feed fish?

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what is furan-2? i tried looking it up but can't seem to find any articles that explains what it is and what it targets.

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arj

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: YeW2001</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi Arj -

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I don't thing it is an internal parasite, otherwise you would suspect other fish would be affected. Perhaps stress causes it?

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I have tried worming treatments & antibiotics with little effect on this problem.

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It is frustrating and odd - but thankfully a limited number of species/genera are involved.

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</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: kevsta</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi,

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I tried metronidazole for about 4 weeks with high water temperatures but couldn't eradicate the wasting disease.

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I have had success with metronidazole when treating fish that have white stringy poo though, and it is effective. But six months after treatment the fish has become a runt.

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Regards.

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Here are my thoughts on Wasting Disease:

I swear that wasting disease is simply tape worms or other forms of worms.

The technique to treat takes several goes to master because the person treating MUST get the fish to ingest the treatment other wise it WONT work. If the fish has lost it's appetite it is basically dead as it sits and too far gone to survive.

What a lot of people do is treat once and it doesn't work, so they throw out the medication because they won't persevere and try again and again. It's not easy but it works. It took me about 6 goes to successfully treat my discus for the first time. After that i was able to get the discus to ingest the medication every single time as i knew the technique.

A mistake people make is to leave filter sponges in their filters and/or carbon

Another mistake people make is to not repeat the dose to rid the tank of re occurring infection

Another mistake people make is to not do a big 50-60% water change 2 days after treatment.

I am a bit sceptical of Sterazin as i don't know the active ingredient and it isn't ingested.

Worms are more common than people think, and a fish can carry the parasite for quite some time.

I will add more of my thoughts as i can

Anthony raisehand.gif

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