Gav Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 remember duck, only two types of opinions to teflon, his and the wrong one. so i think you should give up mate. if he doesnt want to benefit from good advice, then let him go i trialed salts/buffers for a few months on some tanks, and watched the difference it made to the fish in those tanks compared with ones in the tanks without the salts buffers. this showed measurable increases in the amount of fry per mouthful, the frequency of mouthfuls and the fertility rate of all my fish when using the buffers as opposed to when i just used buffering substrate. i have also found fry growth rates to be better. that is my experience with it, others may or may not have the same results. i sure as hell could and would go without the extra cost if it wasnt giving me the results i was after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 so you could use natural/cheap substrate/media based buffering for PH & just use the "salts" bottle as the "buffer" bottle is superfluous? edit: what I'm saying is the seachem make two products - a buffer and a salt. Is the buffer product purely to get the PH & hardness right whilst the salts product provides the trace minerals?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Gav we wouldn't want to tarnish a brand that you just happen to be selling Also DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF THEY WORK? and i mean real proof not "confessions" like on a demtel ad like "I added the salts and 3 minutes later they were spawning, I would recommend them to a friend" So please don't try and force things on me because i won't buy your buffers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWs Fish Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 why feed fish at all eh? i mean its far cheaper to not even feed them. while we are at it, we probably shouldn't heat the tank either, as that is just a waste of electricity. and filtration? who needs that hey. no cannister filters in the wild. its all just a scam to steal out money. beware all, its the worlds greatest conspiracy..... to impoverish all fishkeepers worldwide. Yea let me add to that - Why bother testing for poisons in the water like nitrites? LOL If you wanna take shortcuts with your fish, you can. Its up tp the individual IMO how well they want to/can look after them. IMO you nont need the buffers if you have shell grit/limestone etc. ON the other hand, of course they are good fr your fish, replicating their natural habitiat. PS: if your pH is too low, the fish start scratching because their skin is being burned by the water. So IMO you need some sort off buffer whether it be salts like Gav is selling or shell grit etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Hmmmm how we got from buffers to nitrites i will never know, So the Jist of what all you "Expert fish keepers" are saying is if you don't use buffers your pretty much not caring for your fish? Geez give me a break!! BUT if its from a brand name I must need it, I think that really shows who the "Expert fish keepers" are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 lol, dude i sell the stuff to help people out. i only sell it for that reason. i buy it in bulk for my use cos its cheaper that way. i then try and help others out by giving them the same bulk price. such a horrible thing to do hey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Proof of what works. Like I asked earlier, define 'work'. If 'work' is to help replicate the natural environment of the fish, you only need to look at chemical analysis and breakdown of trace elements in the water. Nobody is trying to sell you anything, and nobody cares what you do and what you buy. The answers to your questions are all here already if you bother to read them. Unless you define 'work' differently, in which case you will need to answer what it is you mean by 'work', and what you would like in terms of proof? If you want chemical analysis of the lakes, check the FAQ, or google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 lol, dude i sell the stuff to help people out. i only sell it for that reason. i buy it in bulk for my use cos its cheaper that way. i then try and help others out by giving them the same bulk price. such a horrible thing to do hey? ← Do what you like just dont pass them off as a "must have" Proof of what works. Like I asked earlier, define 'work'. If 'work' is to help replicate the natural environment of the fish, you only need to look at chemical analysis and breakdown of trace elements in the water. Nobody is trying to sell you anything, and nobody cares what you do and what you buy. The answers to your questions are all here already if you bother to read them. Unless you define 'work' differently, in which case you will need to answer what it is you mean by 'work', and what you would like in terms of proof? If you want chemical analysis of the lakes, check the FAQ, or google. ← Your fish haven't been in the lake for years and years If you have wildcaughts thats different. Oh BTW my flavus and elongatus "spot" are in a tank that dosen't use buffers/crushed coral or any other "Magical conditioner" and they are growing 1cm a month and were showing colour at 2cm. SO how you need buffers i will never know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Ash, on the topic of using salts and not buffer. I agree, you need to find you own balance. I would use alot less buffer if I dosed tanks individually or aged water seperately depending on tank substrate but I don't. As it is I use a minimum of buffer, and find that it is great for keeping the stabilty in tanks with a buffering substrate, but probably not required if your substrate is getting the pH and hardness where you want it anyway. That salts attack a different problem, that of the trace elements, and I think they can be used without buffer in a tank with a buffering substrate to very good effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 i never said they are a must have, i said there is significant benefits to having them. bit of a difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 this is just so much more fun than work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 By your logic, we could throw a baby into outer space and it would be fine, it hasn't been in our atmosphere for years and years, and obviously evolution couldn't be dictating the best environment for the species. ps. My elongatus spot have gone from 1.5-2.5cm at purchase, to over 6cm and I have had them less than 3 months - what were you saying about healthy growth rates? Even the one with the kinked spine grows at more than 1cm/month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 By your logic, we could throw a baby into outer space and it would be fine, it hasn't been in our atmosphere for years and years, and obviously evolution couldn't be dictating the best environment for the species. ps. My elongatus spot have gone from 1.5-2.5cm at purchase, to over 6cm and I have had them less than 3 months - what were you saying about healthy growth rates? Even the one with the kinked spine grows at more than 1cm/month. ← I have only had mine for 6-7 weeks so who knows how quick they will grow. As I said do what you like But IMO buffers are a waste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar Posted August 26, 2005 Author Share Posted August 26, 2005 Well guys thanks for the responses. That makes it about as clear as mud for me. Although the reason I asked the question was, I have a colony of Lab Hongi breeding regularly in a three footer. This tank had about 5-7 kg of coral and marble substrate. I then moved them to my a new setup which had banked 4 x 4 footers with a sump. Two of the girls bred for me one more time then nothing. These tanks have only about 1 kg of substrate in it. All my water conditions were the same except it had better filtration. Nitrates, PH were the same. So in order to get them to breed again I thought I would look into the buffers as alot of people do swear by them. Therefore I think I will give it a try to see what happens. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Well after 35 years plus in the hobby and 95% of the time with rift lake cichlids I must admit I lean towards the use of water additives. I do use Seachem lake salt and buffers and have for about 8 years. I have tried a lot of recipes over the years but found this particular brand to be the best. Just my 2c worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagMama Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 throw a baby into outer space Careful, Duckers... I have also found, with Sydney blundering through water restrictions the way it has been, that it's a lot cheaper to just not re-fill my tanks at all... I figure there's about two more weeks left before evolution dictates that they all turn into shrubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I was hoping you'd be reading I didn't mean YOUR baby. I meant the one that already had a sore foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midnightexpress Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 what's not feeding fish or filtration got to do with what i said.what i'm saying is people are pushing these products to sell them.i do not use buffer and my fish breed like rabbits and they grow so quick.teflon is right if you got wild caught then you can use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parrdog Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I have used Seachem salts and buffers in my Tropheus tank since I got them (16 months ago). I have had no health problems and they are breeding which is a big thrill to witness. I'm not saying that their good health is solely from the additives, but they are thriving and always have nice colour so I'm not about to change. To tell you the truth, since I only have one tank it doesn't cost that much since I buy in bulk. I will definately keep using salts and buffers, Jamie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Man what a difference a day makes I use Seachem buffersin all my tanks now. I wont make a "confession" about how happy I am with them. Not to mention the fact that to buffer my water to the levels I do would be very hard with out them. Its alos about the trace elements aswell. Most the the people who have great success breeding hard to breed fish use buffers and salts in their water and attribute their sucess to using these products. teflon is right if you got wild caught then you can use them. Cool thanks for the permission to use them. I was waiting for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 what i'm saying is people are pushing these products to sell them.i do not use buffer and my fish breed like rabbits and they grow so quick. ← Midnightexpress, let's get this straightened out a bit please. Yes, Gav sometimes orders a big bulk lot of the seachem products and sells them on to us hobbyists at a hugely discounted rate. He does not do this to make money, he does it to help us out. Please do not voice your assumptions until you have researched them If you are having some good luck without the salts or buffers, well done. I myself have found my fish to be happier, more active, and better breeders when using them. I use a buffering substrate and suplement that with the seachem salts mix. My suggestion is for people to try these products first before they dismiss them. Gav, is there another bulk order coming up soon? I'll grab some more salts in the next order if you are planning to do another one thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I'll be keen to Gav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midnightexpress Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Baz when did i say anything about gav.get your fact right before you write somthing.i was talking about lfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 You're correct, you did not mention his name. However, his name had already been brought up earlier in the thread, and your comment people are pushing these products to sell them seems to refer to people (individuals) and not a business or businesses. As far as I could see, Gav was the only person who had been mentioned But I'm glad to have been wrong in this instance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midnightexpress Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 from the start of this thread all i mentioned was lfs. someone else has mentioned his name not me,i will never do that because it's non of my business what he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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