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Certficates for wild fish


parkesg

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Hi,

I know this was discussed before..But

I am getting a lot of requests for certificates confirming my imported fish are wild, and quite frankly it is frustrating..

my response is always the same:

Certificates are meaningless if issued by the importer. I could buy tank raised and give you a cert saying they are wild, I printed from my inkjet.. Certs only mean something if the african collectors issue them, and then they are tracked all the way from the lake to Australia. As far as I know no certs in Australia are issued by the collectors themselves? I can send you an email confirming I've purchased from supplier as wild fish.

I think this is a reasonable response. It appears this marketing move has served others well in the past, but it needs to be made clear it doesn't guarantee they are wild. I know by me not offering Cert's I am losing sales, but this is my position.

It comes down to the buyer trusting the importer and the importer trusting their supplier..

Cheers Grant

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Good one Grant. Im totally agree with you. As long as buyers happy with quality of the fish they bought and TRUST the importer. That's it. I think only Ravi issued cert of original but....it doesnt make sure if the fish is wild caught or not unless the import told u so. I know this topic has discussed many times before, but that's my opinion

Peter

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I support your approach. Certification is difficult to verify at any stage of the supply chain and are meaningless to me.It is all about trusting in the integrity of the importer and their supplier.

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Hi Grant

I'm totally with you mate. The only way I'd put any stock in a certificate printed in Australia is if the importer/seller caught the fish and then travelled with them each step of the journey. Never gonna happen.

To be honest, even certification coming from the collector would be next to meaningless unless each fish is chipped or barcoded.

I mean, seriously, the certificate would say that some guy collected some fish in Africa on this date.

And then, you're buying the fish in Australia months later, after coming through at least 3 sets of hands, a bit of paper is worth nothing.

The potential for shenanigans is huge.

For all we know the wild fish are already in LFS in Germany and the middle man has replaced the primo wild stock with local tank reared stuff because we're so desperate for fish we wont know the difference in Aussie-land...

Trust is everything. So long as you give your word, and are as transparent as possible, it is up to buyers to decide whether they trust you and your supply chain - or instead place that trust in a bit of paper printed by a guy in Australia "gauranteeing" that the fish was wild caught in Africa.

Cheers
John

ps. This is in no way a dig at people who have bought/sold/traded/imported fish with certificates. Just my opinion on why 'trust' is so much more important than 'paper' in our market where our fish are so far removed from wild.

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I look at certs the same way as most people do, i dont like them and they mean nothing.

Its just like a few years back with Arrowana Farm Bred with certificate

1. that proved it was smuggled and

2. some certs were forged.anyway

Trust the source and there is no issue, it was a smart idea from someone to boost their sales and put other importers stocks down without saying it ;)

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I they are worth less, I would rather see a receipt of purchase and import for the fish in question if I was in doubt

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Agree with you 100% Grant

I think certificates issued by the importer set a dangerous precedent, much like the situation we are now in where people ask for them. In actual fact they are meaningless as they don't actually certify that the fish are wild caught.

Trust is the most important aspect

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I to strongly agree with you Grant.

The serious proper breeders and keepers know who the real importers are anyway.

It maybe breeders who want to over price their offspring from wildcaughts and try to justify with a certificate.

But it won't make any difference, obviously, if the buyer/breeder knows enough.

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I have wild caught electric yellows well according the certificate I have that I may or may not have printed off myself....

Yeah I agree they are not worth the paper they are written on. With some of the fronnie types the catch points are so close (especially the blue zaire types) they really may not be what they say they are. The only person that knows it the poor bunny that has to dodge bullets to dive down grab the fish.

A prime example is the original imported Kitumba fully grown males were almost black but more recent ones more dark purple. My F1 males are very dark because they came from Nigel's initial imports that Frontosa Mick bought in. Whereas some later ones I have are not as dark more dark purple..I am not saying that are not what they say they are just that the WC male had that particular characteristic. As fry they still looked very purple We can only try our best to keep them pure from what we believe are true fish. A piece of paper won't help that.

cheers

rosco

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My friend showed me his certificate one day and we started laughing..

However to be fair I suggest that we should not hold such proof as certificate of WC authenticity but rather than a proof of purchase from an imported stock labelled as WC.

There are those who take a print from an inkjet (yes i am serious) very seriously so be it and give the customer what they want.

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In the 10 years I was importing I never had any doubt about the wild caught being what the exporter told me they were and I imported from Germany, direct from Africa and also the US.

Also in that 10 years I can never remember anyone asking me for a piece of paper that confirmed there true origin.

I know a lot of sellers all over the world and I have never heard of any of them selling tank breed as wild caught.

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As a member has already said,,, it's possible the people that ask are wanting the certificate to help aid, with their sales after thy breed from them.

It may not be a question of, if the buyer believes they are wild caught or not.

These days, buyers are tighter than ever.

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  • 1 year later...

Thread from the dead...

Selling my fish at the moment and got a query from someone that went something like this:

Buyer: Is a wildcaught certificate available?

Me: No

Buyer: Oh! So you can't sell it as wildcaught then.

Me: Yes I can. The fish were imported by Grant Parkes via Germany, the same as other importers. He does not give certificates.

Buyer: Huh, Yes he does

Me: No, he definitely doesn't

Buyer: I have one of his certificates for some Wildcaught frontosa I got from a third party seller....

Me: Well you should probably check the authenticity of it then because he does not offer certificates.

Buyer: I will get a photo for you. "Anyway W.C. = Certificate in market" (I assume he is sticking to his opinion that you may only sell as wildcaught if you have a bit of paper to say so...)

A day or so later I followed up asking if the certificate was real or fake and pointed out that the certificates printed out on an importers home printer is no way a certification that a particular fish has been wildcaught for some of the reasons in the above posts.

Buyer: Agree, but people care for a "bit of paper" and that is why I am wanting it...

Then he writes in the same txt message "I'm sure its (the certificate) just made by some greedy seller"

!!!!!!!!

I decided not to waste my time anymore...

Point is, of course it is made by some greedy seller because ignorant people like this want a 'bit of paper' to tell them that their fish is wildcaught!!!

Never argue with idiots. :roll

I have googled the Wildcaught Certificates only to find that they don't even state that they certify that a particular fish is wildcaught, only to say that the fish meet "rigorous standards set by us", whatever that may mean. It then goes on to say that they are importers of wildcaught and tank bred fish...

Happy to pass on the buyers details to you, Grant if you are interested to find out more about the Certificate and who it came from.

Joel

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What did we do before people started printing certificates at home?

A very very long time ago,,, the documents used to be obtained or made copies of that we're basically the papers after capture at lakes edge before the fish are put on a plane.

All fish leaving the lake has to be/use to be documented,,,, these are the real papers,,, I've seen such papers.

Apparently these papers were always very hard to obtain and not often obtained.

Fancy stiff paper/cardboard with little picture emblems and fancy writing is not a true certification.

If the certificate comes from the supplier and not the importer, it's may be a different scenario there again.

What the importer conjures up is not wild caught documentation.

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What did we do before people started printing certificates at home?

Josh, us old blokes simply bought the fish we wanted, and paid what we deemed a fair price based our assessment of quality.

But I can see how that is far more confusing than total faith in something out of a $29 bubblejet from BigW.

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