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Cichlid Buffers


Caesar

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Hey all,

I have a mix of Malawi and Tang cichlids, and after reading a few posts on here and other forums I am a bit concerned that as I am not using any type of Buffer (apart from coral/marble chip substrate) that my fish may be missing out.

Do I need buffers? Does every body use them? confused.gif

Will it improve the water quality and thus kick on breeding??

Cheers

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I don't buffer my malawi tank but am religious about buffering my tang tank. That is just my preference. I find the salts help tangs breeding inclinations.

If you have Malawi and Tangs in the same tank buffering to a tang pH and kH may kill your Malawis.

Foai

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i have had malawis in everything from straight tapwater to tang type conditions. they are amazingly resilient and can live right down to acid pH if need be. that being said its better to keep them in the water they evolved in. I have limestone/marble in some of my tanks, and not in others. however I buffer all of my water with malawi buffer and also use the lake salts. the biggest benefit to this is that i have the exact same pH in every tank that I have. i find that the fish breed more regularly with me using the malawi buffer than if i dont, even in the tanks that have the pH buffing substrate. salts do help, but i have found they have more benefit for me in relation to the growth of fish as opposed to the breeding fertility and fercundity. havent found any measurable difference in spawning, but most certainly have when it comes to my fry growing.

for my tangs, i use tang buffer as well as salts. i just feel that they do better when kept in the higher kH and gH of tang conditions than when i had them in the same water as my malawis.

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Gav,

So what would you recommend for me in the way of buffers. I currently have a 4 x 4 footers with a sump which are breeding lombardoi, hongi, EY and EB. I also am growing Alto Comp Mutondwe and am looking at expanding into Fronties and Neo Pulcher Brichardi.

Also how much do I need to use per water change (ie how much am I going to need) [money issue].

Thanks for the prompt responses. thumbup.gif

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i personally use seachem products and find them to be excellent. i would obviously recommend them based on my success with them. i use the malawi buffer and the lake salts for the malawis. a very approximate dosage is 30grams per 200 litres for both. cost depends on what you pay for stuff, but on that rate you should get about 6500litres of treated water for each kg.

based on a volume of around 750 litres if you have 4 standard 4 foots, you would likely use about 30 grams of each a week (25% or so change). that means 1kg should last you a good 6 months.

there are also other brands around, but i have no experience with them. they tend to be cheaper, but in my experience you tend to get what you pay for.

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Cheers Mate,

I am thinking that I may have to invest in some of these buffers. I noticed you actually sell them.

Mate I will PM you for some details.

Thanks everyone.

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another reason Americans are cheaper & better! LOL.giftongue.gif

*ducks flying objects hurled at me*

A mate of mine with a pair of 8x2's (one tang, one malawi) uses & swears by the seachem gear - if I ever get around to "switching teams" I'll be using it in conjunction with a buffering substrate/rocks for sure

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I started using them when I invested in some wild caught Malawi's.

Contrary to Gav's observation, I didn't see any (or much) improvement in my existing settled colonies or fry growth rates. I did notice a big difference in the wild caught fish. It definately made them happier and got them to spawn a few times.

I now use it as a matter of course on all Malawi tanks (and I will when I get Tang's too) not because I noticed any real improvement in my 'average' tanks but because of the marked difference in my wild fish, I figure it must be doing something or adding something that my tanks were missing (even with a buffering substrate.

I don't measure too exactly the amounts I use, but a heaped tablespoon per 220ltr drum of each of Rift Lake Salts and Malawi Buffer is what I use.

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Maybe I am just lucky... My Malawis get on well in some treated water with java fern and crushed coral substrate and holey limestone. The Red Empress and Kadango Reds breed with monotonous regularity...

One of these days I will get around to separating them all into colony tanks so I can trade them on the forum classifieds... :D

On the other hand the 'Leccy Yellows couldn't be less interested in anything more than food and chasing the S. eupterus...

I can only guess that the buffering salts have some intrinsic benefit that I'm just too thick to see so far. blush.gif

Cheers - OziOscar.

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when i started in the hobby i used buffers in my tanks,but now i don't used it.the only difference i see is in my wallet,i have money to spend on other things.

don't forget LFS has to sell you stuff to make money.

Ok, you are right and mother nature is wrong.

Think about guys, Nature has spent hundreds of thousands of years evolving our much loved African cichlids in the extremely hard and alkaline water of the Rift Valley. These rift lakes have a water chemistry unlike any other freshwater body on earth. Yet we are happy to say after keeping cichlids for a few years (a matter of seconds in geological time) that she'll be right mate you don't need to waste your money on that stuff.

Granted cichlids are tremendously adaptable creatures and certainly will tolerate a range of environments and water chemistry. To get the best out of them as nature intended we replicate their natural environment both with water chemistry and a quality diet.

Seachem products are designed to replicate the water chemistry of the African rift lakes perfectly. You decide

Regards

@nthony

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so when arabs come to oz we have to tell them they have to live in the desert

because they will be happy there or when people come from siberia we have to

tell them they have to live in freezer because they are happy in that environment.

i had americans live in 7.6ph they were happy and i had africans live in low ph as well.they are adaptable creatures .

all i'm saying is LFS have to sell to make money.i can not see the differnce between using Malawi salts to using rock salts except the $$ and on buffers if you like wasting your money by all means use it.

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when i started in the hobby i used buffers in my tanks,but now i don't used it.the only difference i see is in my wallet,i have money to spend on other things.

don't forget LFS has to sell you stuff to make money.

Ok, you are right and mother nature is wrong.

Think about guys, Nature has spent hundreds of thousands of years evolving our much loved African cichlids in the extremely hard and alkaline water of the Rift Valley. These rift lakes have a water chemistry unlike any other freshwater body on earth. Yet we are happy to say after keeping cichlids for a few years (a matter of seconds in geological time) that she'll be right mate you don't need to waste your money on that stuff.

Granted cichlids are tremendously adaptable creatures and certainly will tolerate a range of environments and water chemistry. To get the best out of them as nature intended we replicate their natural environment both with water chemistry and a quality diet.

Seachem products are designed to replicate the water chemistry of the African rift lakes perfectly. You decide

Regards

@nthony

I was kind of hoping this was going to be said as I would like to ask if there is any evidence apart from people saying so that they are benificial? confused.gif

Also the fact that most of the fish we keep that are not of Wildcaught or the like stage anymore dosen't that also mean that the fish are adapting better and there for becoming less dependent on buffers etc?

The person you bought the fry from might have kept them in "Out of the tap water" and bred like rabbits does that then mean they are dependent on "out of the tap" water? I think not

For example a mate of mine who keeps fish but is in no sence a hobbiest bred fish that were put in a tank that had only been filled 30 minutes before hand with straight tap water with no agers used and not cycled at all but yet his E.Yellows,Peacocks bred like there was no tomorrow and are still doing the same today 5 years later. Do you put that down only to luck?? no.gif I don't think so.

Its a personal choice but I think I would rather use my home buffers rather then spend silly amounts of money on a brand because people "say they work".

Instead of spending money on buffers I can spend the money on other fish,go towards a new filter/tank setup.

I see the "If its more expensive it must be better attitude" alot in fish keeping and it makes me wonder how they came to the conclusion that they are better apart from price, I Made the same point about a well known German brand and people replied saying "they are better" not in so many words but i got that impression.

The funniest thing I find of all though is that 90% of LFS run these so called "Cheap and nasties" but sell the more expensive brands wink2.gif

For example I have seen Chef's knives that cost upto $750 a knife does that mean that a $10 knife from K-mart won't do the same job and last as long? No on the contrary they will probably last you longer.

Sorry for the gripe but I think it's rediculous that people will pay an extra $200 on a filter because its from Germany rolleyes.gif

so when arabs come to oz we have to tell them they have to live in the desert

because they will be happy there or when people come from siberia we have to

tell them they have to live in freezer because they are happy in that environment.

LOL.gifLOL.gif

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i don't believe in using buffer.the most important thing is don't play around with the

Ph of the aquarium,what i mean by this is that cichlids will will adapt any water conditions as long as the water Ph is stable.

if you want to spend your money on seacem lake salt and buffer by all means do

it,i know what i would like to spend my money on. thumbup.gifzipit.gif

even on fish food the instructions say "feed as much as fish can eat in two minutes, two or three times a day".why would you feed the fish three times a day?

Because they want you to finish the food so you can by some more.Once a day is plenty.everyone is out there to sell thier products don't be cond in to this.

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why feed fish at all eh? i mean its far cheaper to not even feed them. while we are at it, we probably shouldn't heat the tank either, as that is just a waste of electricity. and filtration? who needs that hey. no cannister filters in the wild. its all just a scam to steal out money. beware all, its the worlds greatest conspiracy..... to impoverish all fishkeepers worldwide.

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why feed fish at all eh?  i mean its far cheaper to not even feed them.  while we are at it, we probably shouldn't heat the tank either, as that is just a waste of electricity.  and filtration?  who needs that hey.  no cannister filters in the wild.  its all just a scam to steal out money.  beware all, its the worlds greatest conspiracy..... to impoverish all fishkeepers worldwide.

That still dosen't prove they work rolleyes.gif

As I said if someone actually had written proof that they work I might buy them.

Its not the fact of being a tight @ss it's the fact of being smart about things you buy.

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Hi Caesar,

It's interesting you ask about this as I was the same when I started breeding fish over 6yrs ago. I never used the buffers or salts ect ect. My fish still bred and I was happy with that. I thought if I could save a buck I would. Anyhow I then got talking to an experienced breeder and they advised I try using the correct salts ect ect. He swore I would see a difference, so I tried it and I have never looked back. Since I have used the buffers and salts the numbers in which my fish breed and the age they start to breed at is in incredible. I agree with what most people have said, yes fish will adapt like most animals in any enviroment, if you take them out of there comfort zone. They will adapt over time but as everone knows if you have them in conditions that are correct for that particular animal they are alot happier and hence you will reap the rewards. Hope this helps.

Best Regards

MOnique Lunn hug.gif

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OK how about this - buffering a tank with limestone/crushed coral etc to the rough hardness/PH values found in nature vs using Seachem products to the same end - is there a tangible difference in "performance" between the two methods of getting the same perameters?

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teflon, define 'work'??

EDIT: Also Ash, your post snuck in while I was writing but I think it is addressed here too. The use of buffers (at least by me) is not solely for pH and general hardness.

I can show you dozens of articles that outline trace elements in the rift lakes that are not found in our water (in fact not found in most water courses worldwide) but can be somewhat replicated using the correct buffers and salts.

It comes down to wanting the best conditions for your fish, this is the water make-up they have evolved to live in, even with buffers our water wont exactly match but it is far closer.

I have plenty of respect for many people who do not use buffers, but very little for people who write-off other peoples practices with little to no understanding of the reasoning behind them. (Which strangely you are not being grouped in in this particular thread woot.gif ... yet tongue.gif)

As I said, I was a firm believer that shell grit was enough to keep my pH up and my fish bred. But once I did buy some wild caught fish I noticed the difference when I was convinced to try the buffers. As I also said, I cannot see any marked increase in my normal, local bred fish, and my fry were growing freakishly fast before using salts (an advantage of moving them into 300 litre tanks at 1.5cm) but I saw enough difference in my wild and F1 adults/fry behaviours, colours, spawnings to determine in my own mind that Sydney tap water and shell grt don't cut the mustard when REALLY trying to replicate an environment.

I don't think fish NEED salts and buffers, but I think they BENEFIT from them, and it gets down to me wanting to do the best I can for them, the best way I know how.

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This is a good question. Personally I found by using crushed coaral, coral sand, midnight gravel is great. I have trialed just using these products vs using them in combination with the buffers, and the parameters are more stable. I find that if I do water changes I only have to add salts every 3d or 4th change and I have also found that colour and the age in which my fish breed is alot better when using the salts. Like I said this is only my opinion on what I have seen in my fish room so don't take it as gospel. 'If my fish are happy then I am happy'

Best Regards

Monique Lunn hug.gif

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I have plenty of respect for many people who do not use buffers, but very little for people who write-off other peoples practices with little to no understanding of the reasoning behind them. (Which strangely you are not being grouped in in this particular thread woot.gif ...  yet tongue.gif)

Like I give a monkey's uncle

SO your saying that a Offspring today that came from and original wildcaught batch 20 years ago still need lake conditions? rolleyes.gif

Of course wildcaught fish will need the conditions, But I think 90% of people are keeping fish way past filial stages. So my point still stands

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SO your saying that a Offspring today that came from and original wildcaught batch 20 years ago still need lake conditions?

I wont ask you to read my post again, I will simply quote a single sentence. craP, I even shouted a couple of words to get the point across

I don't think fish NEED salts and buffers, but I think they BENEFIT from them, and it gets down to me wanting to do the best I can for them, the best way I know how.

I think it comes down to a survive Vs. thrive mentality rolleyes.gif

ps. How can something be beyond filial stages? dntknw.gif Cloned perhaps?

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