Paratheraps zonatum vs P. coatzacoalcos

[Topogigio]

Hello Australia, I need help. Help in ascertaining the above 2 fish's availabilty here in Oz.

I know zonatums are here and have been here for possible over a decade or more, but since when did P. sp. coatzacoalcos hit our shores?

My reading on this is that some Australian zonatums (the same race/strains we have had for years here) had offspring that showed characteristics similar if not identical to what sp. coatzacoalcos have and were 'tagged' as such (Paratheraps coatzacoalcos).

Am I wrong on the above assumption? Or were coatzacoalcos brought into the country in the last year or so? (I find this very hard to believe)

To me, a true Paratheraps sp. coatzacoalcos is a fish with it's genesis from the rivers, lakes and creeks within Coatzacoalcos, Mexico, or offspring from such fish. Not an Australian race/strain which unfortunately has had no new genetic infusion in a decade or more.... I mean no disrespect to people that obviously know more than I do, but I feel that if this is not clarified now, and rather later, this will become another classic 'green horse face' scenario where people in their heart of hearts feel they have a G. jurupari, when we all know that fish is extinct here in Australia.

Anyways, I really do hope i am wrong, and a new fish species (subspecies) is again available in Australia.

Thanks

[Link2Hell]

yes

there was an article on the differences I'll try and find

but I think the fins were differnet colour and there may have been

an eye patch

from memory P. sp. coatzacoalcos arrived first as P. zonatum

and the next lot were P.zonatum

[Topogigio]

Yes, I too have read some articles in some other forums and on the net. I do not dispute the validity of both fish and their distinctive characteristics.

What I do dispute is (what I feel) the existence of both fish here in Australia... Maybe someone can give more information when this species came to our shores?

[fishguts]

Hi Omar,

If you can find the video of the zonatum that a guy called aquamojo has. (google "Aquamojo zonatum" then checkout the youtube clip and then have a look at "coatzacoalcos".by the same guy, you will see the differance.

I personally have never seen a specimen of zonatum that looks like the first one, in australia ( but that doesnt mean much).

I have however got six juvies that look very much like coatzacoalcos. I have seen the parents of mine and they dont have the black mask or the yellow undercolour that the big fella has. there are plenty of photos and vidoes of this specimen on the net so have a look and tell me if you have seen these. (I hope you have, then you can tell me where to get some)

Jeff.

[Topogigio]

Jeff,

Im on my phone now so I can't link any videos, but here I go:

The zonatum Aquamojo calls Big Blue, is the zonatum I remember seeing back in 2000-2002 here in Melbourne... And more recently here in Rayonne Aquarium where they had big girl (possibly even a male) for sale, eye patch and all.

The fish Aquamojo call F0 Paratheraps coatzacoalcos are nothing like I have seen here in Australia. His fish have a brilliant blue colour/shimmer at such a young size, I can't compare my fish to his.

And now for the YouTube video that has me stumped and questioning my original post.

Name of video: Paratheraps spec. Coatzocoalcos

By Cichliden1

Duration: 1:02

The fish in this video look exactly like what I have, and what i see in Australia. my fish were sourced from Sydney as well when they were semi-adults. If this video is from someone here in Australia, well then that changes nothing.

[cobaltcraig]

One thing I will say My Breeders had a lot of red in them But now have very little

I have two pairs in my display tank both have breed both guarding fry But nearly all the red has gone

I wonder if this is to do when they get older they loose the red coloration Jeff thinks its my lighting But I am not sure of this

Regards

Craig

[fishguts]

hey Omar,

Kanaal van cichliden1

Paratheraps spec. Coatzocoalcos is a dutch video.

I dont think you can draw too much of a conclusion from that clip.... i think if you watch it, one fish looks like Coatzocoalcos and the other one looks like "big blue"

Big blue has plenty of red on him aswell.

I am happy to say that the fish that i have are Coatzocoalcos.

Why dont you take a photo of yours and send it to aqua mojo and ask him what he thinks.....

I am on the american cichlid society forum so if you want me to ask him i can.

That might give you the answers you are after....

let me know and ill contact him for you.....

Jeff

[pat williamson]

Gotta love em , what ever they are ?

But wish I still had this guy more

[fishguts]

Mate

i have just emailed AQUAMOJO to see if he will ID our stuff, so wait and see what he says....

So if you want to get some pics together to send to him... we can see how we go...

[fishguts]

EXACTLY!!!!!

I didnt know you were watching Pat.

Are you going to the auction on saturday??

Call in at my place on your way down mate.

[fishguts]

Hey Omar

Mo Devlin (Aquamojo) has agreed to to have a look at some pics of your boys and ID them for you.

Post them here and i will send them to him.

Pat

I will send that photo to him too if thats ok with you....

[pat williamson]

No probs , send me your email I have many more including breeding colour etc.

[Topogigio]

I'll try and get some decent pics tomorrow morning. Thanks

[Citypainter]

Pats first Picture is exaclty what I believe to be Coatzacolcos.

That red Claudal is the give away

Here is a link to them in breeding dress

http://youtu.be/Bpc5i3KnM2o

[Topogigio]

my pics

male:

female:

here are more pics:

http://s928.photobucket.com/albums/ad123/Topogigio82/ParatherapsZonatum%20or%20Coatzacoalcos%20May%202012/

thanks

[pat williamson]

more evidence for the case

Good luck Jeff

[fishguts]

Hi Everyone

I sent the link to Aquamojo (Mo Devlin)

i hope he gets it successfully.

Personally, i don't particularly care what they are (zonatum or coatzacoalcus) im just stoked to have them here, and, in the numbers that they are, makes them affordable for everyone to enjoy.

Lets not let these disappear, like we have let Bifasciatus disappear, just because there is percieved to be no market for them. What would you pay for bifas these days if they re-appeared???? the true fennies are becoming that way, No market... why bother.

This is how things become "extinct" in the australian hobby.

[pat williamson]

I agree Jeff, I don't care what they are either I just believe that we need everybody to be calling them by the same name ( preferably the correct one ). That way we can avoid cross breeding and confusion when buying little grey juvies ...........All the best

Pat.

[fishguts]

hi Pat,

PM me your email mate.

[Aquamojo]

Hi all....had some roubl logging on but it was fixed. Thanks.

The fish above is Paratheraps sp. "coatzacoalcos"...and a very nice specimen. They are often confused with P. zonatus....and sometimes sold as "red tail" zonatus here in the states. The upcoming issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyis magazine has an article I wrote about this particular fish. One of the most interesting aspect of this fish is the difference in coloration that can occur amongst sibling fish. I currently have eight of these beautiful fish. I don't know if it is a dominance thing or what....but here's a pair of the fish in one tank:

Female on top, male on bottom.

And here's a pair that are breeding in another tank. Siblings...same brood. Female on top, male on bottom.

You can see how easy it would be to confuse the vibrant blue with that of the P. zonatus. Zonatus on left...Aquamojo on the right. ;

[Ged]

Welcome back to ACE Mo.

Is there any particular traits or charcateristics that we need to look for when trying to identify the two particularl considering the fact that there is such variartion between siblings.

It is great to see that your photography is still of such a high standard.

[Topogigio]

thats a machine... I mean fish!

the youtube video definetely doesnt show how big that monster is! its humangous!...

Now to the ID...

if the consensus is we have P. sp. "coatzacoalcos", what happened to the real zonatums we had in Australia 10 years ago? (or more recently a big female in Rayonne Aquarium) - have they become extinct? i may have to pop in there and see if that fish still is there.

on a further note, i hope the sp. "coatzacoalcos" we have, are at least pure, with their genesis from Coatzacoalcos, Mexico... cause if we didnt trust the origin of these fish (the people that is) one could be forgiven for saying they are a black belt X ???

now to Rayonne.

[Aquamojo]

Welcome back to ACE Mo.

Is there any particular traits or charcateristics that we need to look for when trying to identify the two particularl considering the fact that there is such variartion between siblings.

It is great to see that your photography is still of such a high standard.

It's difficult when they are that electric blue. If you look at pges 3&4 on my gallery you can see a juvenile zonatus @ about 6" for comparison. Generally....but not always, the coats will have that horizontal barring across their snout. Plus, the females will have far less blue coloration in the body.

[Citypainter]

Hi Aquamojo.

The pair that I have on youtube were in breeding dress in that video. There was no blue to be seen. Something seems wrong. Could you have a look at that and tell me what you think they are. Thanks

[cobaltcraig]

Dave it could be as they get older My 2 Pairs have very little red in them at all now

But not much Blue

Cheers

Craig