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Health: bloat (Tropheus)


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Hi all

Recently my tropheus tank has started the breeding thing, There are 22 dubosi, and was 12 Kiriza in the tank, All has been fine for ages ~6 months. heaps of hiding rocks 6x18x18, the duboisi and Kiriza completely ignore each other.

With the onset of breeding first in th eKiriza and now in the dubosi, I have a few unhappy fish,, listless , stringy poo, spitting, so they have bloat......:

THEy are being treated with metronidozol, both in the water and I soak the flake in it. one was dead when i got back from 4 days in Brissy(tuesday), another died a day later.

The fish are breeding, although they are still too small in my opinion~4-5cm, after the femles have breed their little vents look torn, and are protruding for a few days after, 3 female Kiriza so far have done this. the dominant male is all of 4cm!!

They hold for anywere from 2 hours to 2 days, then spit/chew/swallow the eggs.

yesterday i saw a bigger female that was holding spit a heap of mushed egg? from her mouth, the other fish all rushed in and had a feed.... Today I saw a dubosi do the same thing although she didnt even look to be holding., and it was about 2 hours after feeding them, so rulled out food..

Now I am wondering if it is the stress of the females passing bowling balls that is messing them up, and resulting in some kind of infection?

Or I thought of this today, is the bloat due to the fish eating very high protein,low fibre fish eggs?

Any suggestions?

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Hi Mick,

i find from personal experience that Tropheus rarely get bloat when they r juveniles but once they start breeding, they start to be a lot more susceptible to bloat!

I don't know why it is the case but it could be because when they r holding, they tend to eat less and maybe their intestines start playing up from lack of roughage. It can also be because they swallow their mouthful. But often young adults beginning to breed for the first time will swallow their mouthful without any untoward effects. It may be a transition phase where they r quite stressed over learning to breed and once they get the hang of it they will be OK.

Anyway i think u should medicate them at the earliest sign of bloat. Medicate the whole tank if u can afford it or remove the affected fish to a sick tank. Can try lacing the food with metronidazole as well. I find soaking the flake in Garlic Guard by Seachem helps to increase their appetites.

Dave

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My duboisi took about 6, or so, tries B4 they managed to hold Full-Term.

I do not think that the egg-eating would be the source of Bloat.

The fact that you have already had 2 deaths concerns me greatly and makes me wonder about the details of the tanks regime and how long they had bloat B4 you started treatment.

I try too keep a steady routine for feeding, water change and decore. Feed only 1 high-quality flake-food(or the same food all the time)3-5 times per day(smaller amounts of food when feeding more times). Do water-changes at the same time/day each week and try to leave things in the tank for 6-weeks, or more, between moves.

Metron works but Clout is the best, IME.

If you need to you can reduce the water-level in the tank in order to reduce the dosage required...this will be much more effective than treating sick individuals. Have medication on standby and treat the entire tank at the first sign of appetite reduction...meaning, if the same fish does not react to, or eat, food normally at 2 consecutive feedings.

I have the tank set up differently to you also. I do not have lots of rocks. I have 5 Limestone-tubes that are claimed by the 5 dominant males among the group of 43. The boys spend most of the time guarding their "Patch" and spawning/aggression has not been a problem. While the rest of the group stay away from the rocks and in the open-water, as best as they can.

Maybe you could remove all but 4 caves from the tank...depending on how long the decore has been established.

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Ok, I have only one thing in common with Maz...I use Sera Flora exclusively. That is as far as the similarities go.

I feed once a day, at no particular time. My tanks are heavily rocked up. I do water changes when I get the time (with 80 odd tanks it is impossible to have a strict regime...sometimes water changes are as infrequent as 6 weekly ohmy.gif ).

I have never encountered bloat and have been spawning them successfully for many years.

I have Met. on standby, but the expiry date comes up before it gets used (as I have never had to use it on the Tropheus spp.). I can't comment on the effectiveness of Clout, however I do know of some very experienced Tropheus spp. breeders who swear by it.

So, in summary, I would think that diet is the most important consideration with thes fish. Vegetarian based flake and don't chop and change. Both Maz and myself have a lot of success with the species that we keep, regardless of our difference in approach to decor and water change regime.

HTH.

merjo smile.gif

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I think the differences between your Tropheus spp. tanks and mine, Merjo, is bought about by feeding regimes.

As I said I feed as often as I can. I am also guilty of overfeeding all my fish, not to the point of ill-health but more than many others I have seen unsure.gif , and because of this I do have to make sure to keep on top of cleaning/water-changes, etc.

As far as the decore goes I find it to hard to strip the tank all the time to catch fry/holding-Mums. I use a couple of dividers to get around this problem and having heaps of rocks would make it hard to slip the dividers into the tank.

Also with the numbers I have in my groups I found that with a lot of rockwork in the tank the nastiest boy would claim as much of the rock-pile as possible which elliminated the ability for as many males as possible getting in on the furtilization of eggs...not what I want.

Now what happens is the girls have 5 boys to choose from and I have watched K1 females go from male to male to collect milt...what tarts. LOL.gif The boys seem to limit their claimed turf to their caves immediate area.

I agree that we both have success and I am not saying the way I do it is the best/only way to go...it is just the way I do it.

What I would say tho is, if you do get Tropheus Bloat the faster it is attacked/treated the better your recovery and survival rate. Which is why I would like to know more about trofius's regime and what happened in the lead-up to his deaths.

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Thanks for th comments guys,

The regime... well the tank gets a water change, of about 20% per fortnight, usually a tuesday, as the town water gets a big dose of chlorine on Friday.

The tank is a 6x18x18, the filter is a 50l DIY canister i built, water is crystal clear always, temp is 26-27. pH is stable at 8.0, gh= 150, kh = 200, the filter has 15kg of crushed shells/coral as buffering medium.

I feed the fish a 50:50 mix of OSI spirilina , and sera flora, have done for about 4 months now...I feed them once a day, either morning or night, some times both, and they are usually grazing on what little algae they let grow on the tank , and decor. I have other tropheus getting the same food, and no problems, in their tank.

As mentioned the tank is a 6x18x18, there are a pile of rocks at one end, 2 big rocks in the middle( which they spawn between) another smaller pile about a foot from the other end, there are also 2 terracotta pots whit holes in them between the three piles of rocks, I have a creek sand substrate.

What happened: I was going to Brissy for a few days last weekend, fri-tues. So I did a 20%water change on the wednesday( was working all day tuesday) and all was fine, I syphon out the water, and then re add the new water over about an hour~80liters adding chlorine neautralizer periodically, this I have noticed keeps the temp constant, pH usually drops to about 7.9, but recovers after a day or so..

I had someone feeding them for me while I was away, they had done this before and knew what to do. When i got home tuesday morning there was a dead Kiriza on the bottom (and a damm female aswell) i removed her and watched the tank for a bit, another 2 were a a bit sad looking, just not the usually very active selves.

So I removed one, the other had a mouthfull so that was her excuse!

The kiriza i removed was placed in to another tank and treated with metro, 200mg:40liters of tank water as i have allways done, with sucsess in the past, dead 4 hours later. so I put that down to the stress of catching an unhappy fish.

Have sinced dosed the entire tank, and will 20% water change and redose on Monday, so far there are 5 fish that are not eating or spitting. I am also soaking the flake in the metro for 10mins before i feed them, all the others are going fine.

I should add that there are other fish in the tank, and there has been for 3 months, 5 E. melanogenies, 4 X. spilopterous, a very shy little leleupi, and 5 blue occies. all get along fine, and pretty much ignore each other..These fish are all in good health. There is a pic of the tank in the picture link in my sig, page 3 community test tank.

I have never had any dramas with this group of fish before, I did loose a few of the duboisi after they were shipped up to me, but were very small ones ~2cm and did get a bit of a shift around in a few weeks, as everything was in a bit of chaos here, moving all the tanks to the garage. The fish werein there own tank for 3 weeks then divided from the kiriza in another tank for 1 week but the divider moved and they ahave been together ever since..

just seems strange that it started the weekend aftre they started to spawn....

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It all sounds fine, different to what I do but fine, I have not had any deaths as a result of getting bloat so I do not know how fast they die without treatment...BengaBoy would be the guy I would be sending a PM to if I was you...but maybe the dead K2 had bloat B4 you left or on the first day??

I do remember BengaBoy telling me that he found the Tropheus can be touchy(read: susceptable to Blaot) around "puberty" and this would tie in with the start of spawning activity.

I know Steve doesn't get on the forums to often so an email or PM might be the best way to get a response, as soon as possible, from him.

Also, have you looked at Steve's Tropheus site...here is the link--->Click here

Great place to look/read about Tropheus in Australian conditions.

HTH

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Thanks for the reasurance Maz, I didnt think I had done anything wrong, but yes maybe one of the K2 was a bit sad before I went away, unfortunatley i didnt notice, and I spend hours in there a day....

I have seen Steves site many times in the past few years and yes there is a huge amount of info there, actually the duboisi are from his colony, via Anita...

Jus ta question , a few people recomend clout as a treatment, and I have never used it or seen it, were do you get it from? Anyways off to get some more metro today and redose the tank, still no more losses, but stil a few not eating.

Thanks

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After having read the replys that where posted here i have to say sorry guys and Andrea but nothing said here fills me with confidence. There are all sorts of facters that cause bloat in tropheus. The big mistake i find most people make with them is over feeding and also water conditions. As for medication the only thing that is a sure fire cure is a strong antibiotic. I use Kanaplex and soak there food in Metronidazole i use these together. I have handeled 100s of tropheus over the years both wild caught and tank breed. I also use to breed them years ago and nothing said here i would do.

I will explain what the cause of bloat in tropheus is. Its a bacterial infection of the intesternal track caused by a parasite. So you need an antibiotic to kill the bacteria and Metronidazole to control the parasite.

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oK Nigel

can the kanaplex be obtained from a vet? and any info on the price? regime etc metro is pretty cheap at $30 for 100, 200mg tabs.

can you suggest what i should be doing that is different to what has been posted?

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As stated there is no one thing that causes bloat. What i do is keep the tanks clean keep the carbonate hardness up and make sure i dont over feed them. As for the kanaplex(made by Seachem) you can try a vet as with any antibiotic you will need to get it from a vet. I dont know if you have a vet up there that knows anything about fish because that would be a big help. As for a price on antibiotics i have no idea all i can tell you is what i do. So my advice is to try and find a vet that knows something about fish and explain the problem you have and see what thay can come up with.

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ok looks like im on my own then, vets up here know what a horse is and a cow and cats and dogs,, the one we use is pretty good, we use him for all our wildlife issues,( i am a career) and he is always keep to help for free. he has a bit of knowledge about fish , but nothing really specific. he did know that metro can be used for fish , but relateing to hole in head,hexamatosis, and he had the info for dosages on te computer, I will have a chat to him when i get the metro this arvo

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What you can tell the vet is that the best antibiotic for this is a Kanamycin based one. Also that you want to treat a bacterial infection in the intestine he may be able to come with something that will help. Sorry i can do it for you its just a shame that you are so far away. Anyway let me know how you get on with the vet and if i can help you with this i am happy to.

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Ok Nigel will see how it goes kanamyacin is apretty flash antibiotic, so cant imagine it will be cheap, also not that readily used i beleive, but will have a chat to him, he will probably wanna poo sample so he can have a play with it before i can get some if he aggrees it will be the best thing.

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A poo sample wont be any help to him i dought it will show anything. What you need is a live fish with bloat waste of time but there is plenty of things about this all over the internet and i just about every book on tropheus.

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HERE is a good aticle with step by step pics on treating infected tropheus with bloat.

U can substitute Aquafuran with Furan 2 available here in aust.

HTH

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Thanks Jim, and nigel

Well that artical reinforced that most, really dont have a clue about the exact etiologic of this disease, but it is still good to see that people are trying to treat it in a methodical manner.

I did another 50% water change today and redosed the tank, 200mg:38liters, abouts..continuing to soak the flake in the metro before feeding aswell. all still swimming.

About the drug you mention Nigel. The vets here dont even carry kanamycin as it is pretty much a last resort type antibiotic, for more resistant strains of gram negative bacteria, but he can order it, he also suggested another broad spectrum, multiple antibiotic might be better, that he has known to be used in water to treat fish , it was called linco-spectin, apparently it kills both gram negative and gram positive bacteria,and other types of protozoans, flagelates etc...Now having looked this stuff up it seeems to be a good candidate for usefull broad spectrum treatment. may have to use a substitute filter for a bit while using it however, so the bacteria load in the big critter doesnt get destroyed.

the Vet is also going to find out some info from a vet he knows in Brisbane that deals a bit with fish, to find out any other info regarding treatments of intestinal disorders in herbivorous fish, esp. tropheus...hopefully he will obtain some usefullll info.

Jim were do you get furan 2 from, never seen it in any lfs up here?

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Well it looks like you have a vet that is able to help thats good. The antibiotic is worth a try as Jim said Furen 2 works i have never tried it but i understand that some Aquarium shops still stock it. If Jim reads this post again he might tell you where he gets it from. I think it may help others if you let the forum know what the outcome is with your search for an antibiotic also how you go with treating the tropheus. Keep soaking there food in the Metronidazol this will help to control the parasite untill you can give them the antibiotic.

What you can tell your vet is you need an antibiotic that works with internal bacterial infections. This is one of the big problems with treating tropheus is getting the medication to where it will work the best. I have been trying to get the importer of Kanaplex to make it more available but because of our quarantine laws he is finding it to hard. The advantage of it is that its absorbed through there skin so its very effective in treating bloat.

I hope everything works out and keep us updated with how it all works out.

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hey Nigel,

yes Australian Import laws can a bit hindering, at times!,but for good reasons i guess. There is so many over the counter type drugs in the states, that ar'nt even allowed here.

I know what you mean about the hard part is getting the drug to the desired tissues is an issue. especially whe its the intestinal mucosa and the fish refuses to eat, silly dont know whats good for em,at least the ones eating will be more protected from catching it.

The other antibiotic I mentioned, Linco-spectin i would assume is stable across tissues,as it is predominantly used to treat repiritory problems in chooks, it is also used to treat enteric, disorders in pigs, beef, birds. It is usually added to the water or feed, comes in both powdered form, tablets and liquid. the powder dose is 1g to 10liters of drinking water, = 67mg of antibiotic /liter! so it may also be cost effective.

I did find a website were a guy who uses it to treat discus,and angels,at much higher dose rates, for everything from gill flukes, whitespot to that black skin eating disease they can get, he claims it works, much quicker than the metro, and usually has a positive effect within 24hours, so i will contact the vet again today and see if he has some and will give it a go. fingers crossed. Will keep you all posted

The Kiriza have another small mouthfull again today.... at least most of em are still happy!

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Found a guy on the net is an aquatic microbiologist, fish disease guru, sebnt him an e-mail, this is his reply:

"Your fish do not have what is common called bloat or abdominal distention. From your description, it would appear that your fish have an internal parasite located in the intestinal track. Most likely from my experience, it is a combination of Spironucleus (a flagellate) and Capillaria (a round worm). The use of the Metranidazole is a good start if you are adding to the water, although it will take longer and cost more. If the fish are not eating, you have no choice but add to the water.

As to the other parasite (the worm), you will need to see if your local vet can get you Ivermectin injectable at the 1% level. If the vet can, the use this formula.

Mix 1ml of the 1% injectable solution with 19 mls water. (milky solution)

Day one: add .1ml per 20 gallons of water.

Day two: add .2ml per 20 gallons of water.

Day three: add .4ml per 20 gallons of water.

Day four: do 1/4 water change.

Day five: do 1/4 water change.

Hopefully this condition has not gone on too long to be able to bring the fish back."

Any suggestions, as to if anyone else would attempt this treatment, I am a bit concerned with the stress of catching and injecting small fish with up to 0.4ml.

thanks

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Hi Mick,

I don't know if he's actually saying to inject the fish. I think he says to just get the 1% injectable solution and mix it into the water as per directions.

Have I mis-read it?

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No i would not do it. I have treated a lot of tropheus with bloat over the years. When i first started all i had was Metronidazole i had some success but still lost a lot. Now that i have the antibiotic if thay do come down with it i lose almost none. Here is an example about a 18 months ago i had 50 maswa from Germany that came down with bloat in the past i would be lucky to save 20% of them with the antibotic i lost 3 out of 50. All i can say to anyone is if there tropheus get bloat give them an antibotic.

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hey gang,

thanks for the continued info, and interest, After having reread it i agree yes it is saying to add it to the water, i dont function real well in the morning and didnt really click on to what he was advising, Thanks for the slap in the head lol.

Nigel I will be getting the linco-spectin Antibiotic Tommorrow and will give it a go, will also have chat to the vet about his Brisbane contact, and any info he has gained.

A few more are spitting now, so about 9, as a guess,its hard to keep track of 30 odd fish in a feeding frenzie trying to work out who is spitting and who is swallowing! And the Kiriza that was holding spat a heap of egg mush again today, bugger, I think it is her second time in about 3 weeks.

thanks again all.

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