7 Days, 7 Dead?!?!

[erinjaynee]

Hey everyone.

I'm new to this forum, and actually joined to get some help on this matter.

So for about 6 months I have maintained my 8 peacock cichlids. I had them in a 3ft tank for about a month when I first got them, but after that I moved them into my 4ft tank. They transitioned fine and I had no issues with them at all.

About a week ago I had one die. I thought he just must have gotten sick or was maybe starved by the other guys. He didn't have any visible marks or tears on his fins. It wasn't until about two days later that another one died, and I got a bit worried. Then every other day I would wake up and there would be one, sometimes two dead. I now only have one left (he was the second largest):



As you can see he is not doing so good either. It looks like his tail may even have fin rot?

I tested my pH levels three days ago and they were between 8 & 8.2. I know they usually like it around 8.2 so I figured that was okay.
I did a 50/50 water change last night and added neutraliser to the water. I know a 50% water change is a lot to put on the fish but I figured they were dying anyway and I wanted to do everything I could. However, I woke up this morning with two more dead guys.
I had my water tested at the pet shop today and they told be everything was fine, but there was a slightly high nitrate level which could indicate I had a high level of nitrite in my water.
Roughly 24 hours before they died, they would become lethargic, breathe heavily with their mouth wide open and they definitely wouldn't eat. However it didn't seem like they were being picked at by the other fish.

I'm just wondering if anyone could tell me why my fish are dying, what I could do to prevent this in the future, and if anyone has had this problem before?

This is my current set up:
The tank is set at 26 degrees. The light helps maintain the heat during the night. I feed them small pellets for cichlids once a night. I have two air rocks that I usually keep on low.



This is my filter which was given to me by my sister (who previously used it in her turtle tank). I cleaned it out before I put it in there, and also about a month ago.



Please let me know your thoughts and tell me what I'm doing wrong!

[Buccal]

Your tank looks fairly new, did you cycle the 4ft before switching your fish from the 3ft.??

Do you understand what the nitrogen cycle is ?? (the fishes life line).

I've seen those filters before, and they aren't the greatest,,,, a simple black square sponge with a power head is better if you must have internal,,,,,,, otherwise a cannister external filter is best.

Nitrate slowly builds up which is perfectly normal, for your malawis, 40ppm or even 60ppm is fine and some people get away with up to 120ppm which isn't recommended.

Having higher nitrate readings doesn't mean you've had dangerous levels of nitrite.

But your tank is still likely to be suffering ammonia spikes followed by nitrite if your tank is new and cycle not complete.

If you by more fish to try again, buy "seachem prime" and use as per instructions.

It's a water conditioner and detoxes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

Use till bottle Is gone then stop using,,, by this time your tank should have cycled properly.

All this is if your tank isn't cycled properly and you want to start again fast.

You said your sister gave you that filter, when did you add that in ???

Are you aware you clean your filter media with the tank water in a bucket ?, so you don't kill the beneficial bacteria that does the conversions called the nitrogen cycle.

Which shop did you get water tested ?,,, was it a chain store or specialist store?

As if your tank is new, it shouldn't have high much of a nitrate reading.

You may already know this but I'm just checking.

[erinjaynee]

Your tank looks fairly new, did you cycle the 4ft before switching your fish from the 3ft.??

Do you understand what the nitrogen cycle is ?? (the fishes life line).

I've seen those filters before, and they aren't the greatest,,,, a simple black square sponge with a power head is better if you must have internal,,,,,,, otherwise a cannister external filter is best.

Nitrate slowly builds up which is perfectly normal, for your malawis, 40ppm or even 60ppm is fine and some people get away with up to 120ppm which isn't recommended.

Having higher nitrate readings doesn't mean you've had dangerous levels of nitrite.

But your tank is still likely to be suffering ammonia spikes followed by nitrite if your tank is new and cycle not complete.

If you by more fish to try again, buy "seachem prime" and use as per instructions.

It's a water conditioner and detoxes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

Use till bottle Is gone then stop using,,, by this time your tank should have cycled properly.

All this is if your tank isn't cycled properly and you want to start again fast.

You said your sister gave you that filter, when did you add that in ???

Are you aware you clean your filter media with the tank water in a bucket ?, so you don't kill the beneficial bacteria that does the conversions called the nitrogen cycle.

Which shop did you get water tested ?,,, was it a chain store or specialist store?

As if your tank is new, it shouldn't have high much of a nitrate reading.

You may already know this but I'm just checking.

Thank you for your reply!

I had the tank cycle, with the new filter, for a week and a bit before I switched the fish into it. When I cleaned out the filter a month ago I used the tank water in a bucket. I am thinking about purchasing an external filter for the tank but I've been worried about getting a new filter with the fish still in there... if this last one dies, it looks like I will get an external. I've heard some good things about seachem so I will definitely try that.

I got my water tested at a family run store called Exotiques & Birds of Paradise in Victoria Point, QLD. I have had good experiences with them in the past so I trusted them to do it right.

I wasn't actually 100% on the nitrogen cycle. But I will do some research to make sure I know everything.

Thanks again for your advise.

[mjoconr]

Does sound like new tank syndrome and and hopefully Seachem Prime will do the job.

There are a lot of people way more experience then I on this forum, but there is a type of filter may help you. It uses an idea they call Hydro-Pure, Techden sell them and I'm sure a LFS in your area will have them (http://www.thetechden.com.au/OF_Hydra_50_Internal_Aquarium_Filter_p/qhu27.htm)

I've spoken to two LFS about them and they are very impressed so I purchased a 50 unit I'm going to use in a new tank.

Both LFS are using them directly in new tanks no bio media and 100% new tanks no cycle, one for about 6 month the other for close to a year.

Cheers

Mike

[Buccal]

I would say the problem is the week and a bit is all that was given to cycle. Ammonia spikes.

At least 4weeks and then it's just beginning.

About two to three months a more mature cycle takes place.

If getting a new filter, leave old one in for three weeks or so.

When upgrading tank size, you should always pour portions of existing tank water, when you can when doing weekly water changes on old tank,,, pour old water into new tank as its mature water that's sets of the cycle quicker..

[ziggyboy]

Did you use a new filter? Or did you transfer the old filter to the new tank?

You could have just transferred the filter and 50% of the old water to the new tank and you should have been OK.

Some questions to answer...

1. Did you use a new filter on the new tank or use the old one?

2. If you used a new filter, did you use some of the old media from the old filter?

3. When you said you 'cycled' it for a week and a bit, what exactly did you do to it? And how do you know it is cycled? You normally test whether it's cycled if ammonia and nitrite is 0.

[Buccal]

Hydro-pure is intriguing.

But it's a miniature ozone generater.

Ozone generaters are used mainly on aquaculture and farming practices.

I was going to use a large aquaculture one in my breeding facilities,,,, but on later research I learnt that it harms fry and is only good for advanced fingerlings and onwards.

[mjoconr]

I know this is side tracking this thread, so could you DM me any references you might have on the fry issue ?

[Buccal]

I couldn't do that,,,, I spoke personally to a commercial supplier based in Australia wanting to pay by credit card over the phone.

He straight out told me this as I described my practices.

I probably shouldn't have said I found out in my research as I didn't find out till I was calling to buy lol.

But it's not hard to understand,,,, the bigger the beast the more electricity is needed to kill or effect.

The slight current probed into the water needed to complete the needed process effects small organisms.

I went through this over three years ago so it's not fresh in my memory.

[Buccal]

And I'm not saying hydro pure will have issues with fry because I haven't looked into hydro pure,,, it may be on a even weaker scale.

But it likely would have some implication if I had to guess,

[Link2Hell]

Hi guys

lets keep this thread on track - no hijacking thanks

Please start a new thread for the Hydro-Pure if you want to continue

[mjoconr]

So back to the issue, I've seen no comment about testing KH and GH. I lost all my gold fish before moving to cichlids because when I moved homes. I did not test the water for KH GH. (Did not even know about them)

[Link2Hell]

as has been mentioned what was filtering the 3 ft tank and did you use this on the 4ft also ?

do you have ammonia , nitrate and nitrite kits to test the water

have to agree that it sounds like new tank syndrome and the filter is spiking due to lack of bacteria

[Buccal]

Poor KH and GH values "if not stupidly way off" effects Malawi fish over a more long term period.

The fact that a PH of 8.2 was tested shows it can't be to far of relatively ok GH and KH levels.

Only one and a bit weeks cycle tells the tale.

[mjoconr]

Yer I was going to add that the PH was high so the KH should not be an issue. I was just making it clear but forgot to mention this.

Its new tank syndrome, not enough bacteria.

[mjoconr]

Also I see a filter which does 1000L/Hour max for a tank which is likely to be around 400 to 500 L meaning a max turn over of 2.5 times an hour.

I would think a tank that size needs at least 3000L/H.

[Chuckmeister]

That filter I'm afraid is too small for you tank. It is good for polishing water and circulation.

As far as cycling is concerned you need a test kit to find out what and where your water is at.

Its all about water changes with a cycling tank. You often have to do water changes daily to control the cycle to some degree.

Ammonia needs to be controlled daily and you need to really watch it. A 50 percent water change is a large water change but in a cycling tank is (or can be) about right depending on the reading..

The next stage is your Nitrites. These are an under estimated process and is as big a killer as ammonia because people automatically think its the second stage of the process.

Nitrite symptoms include gasping and rapid gill movements. Nitrite can bind to the haemoglobin component of the blood and may appear as the fish is choking. It probably kills as many fish as ammonia does. Continue your water changes.

I would get a cannister filter, continue on with your cycle and when you add fish again in future build up the fish slowly as that lets your filter build up with the load you are placing on them.

Also through a cycling tank, feed your fish minimally. By that I mean every second or 3rd day and lightly.

Things like adding prime is an emergency situation. It doesn't solve your cycling process in your tank but can on occassion save your fish in an emergency.

[intern1]

maybe buy something to cycle the tank like seachem cycle and try complete water changers 15-20% daily or every second day and buy one of those amonia/nitrite monitors as well

[Spiesie]

Agree with all here, especially Chuckmeister - you need a bigger filter.

I would look at a canister filter. Usually when I buy, I tend to buy one which can handle more than double my tank volume.

[intangcity]

1000lph filter is a little small on a four ftr but its hitting the limit in my opinion any 4ft tank ive had whilst starting in the hobby had a 1200-1800lph filter on it.but also you must think about how many fish you want swimming around in that tank as well if you put 10-15 fish in a 4ftr at max growth size of about 10cm id be looking at getting a 1800-2000lph pump.A 500L tank is approx 4-2-2 .I run at the moment a 5-2-2 tank with a 2000lph internal filter and two sponge filters one in each corner and theres only 5 fish in it max growth would be 8-10cm.still playing around with the tanks but hopefully soon to have the two banks of tanks plumbed up to a sump seperate sumps for the diff water paremeters needed of course.one bank of malawi tanks one bank of tang tanks.you could prob keep that internal filter in there as a circulator add some marine pure balls close to that filter so water circulates over it.pop them in a bag which can be store bought or use a stocking some shops will sell the marine pure already seeded (only need a litre)also add an air pump and sponge filters prob a lot cheaper then a new canister filter too.unless you have got the spare $$$$

[erinjaynee]

Hi everyone!
Sorry I have been sooo busy and haven't had a chance to get back on.
Unfortunately Friday morning my last fish died.
Thank you everyone for your suggestions, especially about my filter.

When moving to the new tank I did use some of the old water but I was using a different filter in the smaller tank.

I emptied the tank out this morning and filled it back up and put some seachem prime in the water.

I will look at some new filters now as I didn't realise it was too small for the 4foot.
Will I have to change all the water out again if I get a new filter?

Thanks again for all your help everyone.

[Buccal]

You should not emptied out water,,, but now that you have refill it and leave old filter in and running.

Buy a new decent filter and add on with leaving the old one in and running.

Once new one is on and running,,,, don't have any fish in,,, but put two piled tablespoons of fish food in the tank towards the front in one pile.

Set your temp to 27. C.

After a few days your water will start to go milky and spike with serious toxic ammonia levels.

This will go on for a few weeks.

At roughly the end of the second week as each day passes the milky white crappy water will start to slowly clear up.

As the third week proceeds to the end the water should be almost clear again.

Once you see the water is clear,,, you know you have a fully cycled aquarium ready to start stocking your tank lightly with fish and slowly increase stocks from there on a weekly basis.

Using food to cycle aquarium really fast forwards and induces the cycle to take place fast without endangering lives of fish.

What's easier than watching water go milky then go to clear which indicates its ready ????

I'll just add also,, if affordability of the cannister filter is a issue,,,, then google up cannister filters eBay.

It's not something I recommend as far as quality goes, but some of them aren't to bad and are very low cost.

Look at the rating on these that indicates what liter tanks they're suited to and buy one that's rated for tank that's 1.5 to 2 times bigger than your tank for good filtration assurance,,,,, the bigger filters don't cost to much more.

If cost isn't a issue, go into a aquarium shop and buy a popular range filter.