hybridisation

[maxib]

A hybrid is defined as the offspring resulting from the breeding of two genetically distinct individuals. Its very rare in nature as most hybrids are sterile. An example is the canine species where crossbreeding is regular. Think of all the different shapes, sizes and colors of dogs but there all the same species just different breeds. Foxes are in the same family as dogs but are a different species and would almost never be able to produce a viable offspring. So whats this got to do with cichlids. Well hybridisation is something I see alot on forums when trying to I.d fish. If two 'species' of cichlid hybridise and the offspring are fertile and can produce more hybrids technically there not a hybrid they are a breed but still of the same species. This throws the whole classification of cichlids out the window because different species rarely breed. How many species have been described in lake Malawi? From a biological point of view too many because if they were indeed different species they would have difficulty hybridising so easily. No wonder cichlids are such fascinating fish but their classification is more like breeds of dog then of actual species where we as people want to keep traits that are asthetically pleasing etc. than an actual classification of a species due to its genetic difference. My head hurts

[myster619]

Cool story bro

[maxib]

After more research there are at least two confirmed 'species' of wild hybrid in Lake Malawi. One is thought to be a mbuna and non-mbuna cross. Simply classifying a species due to its location in a lake or color may not be adequete as the small amount of genetic testing done on malawi cichlids shows that there is little genetic difference between species. If we classified humans the same way maybe there would be thousands of species of humans. Research suggests that many 'pure breed' fish from the rift lakes are actually themselves crossbreeds evolved from parent species. That explains why so many cichlids look almost identical.

[frontoes]

good point Maxib!!!!!

[maxib]

I wish I had something better to do on a Saturday night!

[Buccal]

What most people don't realise is that these lakes are classically Paleolakes (extremely ancient), well back into times when hydrological conditions were drastically different.

So there has been astronomical time for these awesome fish to evolve.

There are three factors that have contributed to diversity.

It gets a lot more complicated into each of these factors.

Mutation.

Adaptation.

Hybridization.

A classified pure specie is a specie that is derived from the above three factors naturally without any human intervention.

These naturally derived species can have more than one of the three factors at work.

The diversity doesn't just stop at appearance,, but it's interesting to see how these fish are classified.

Jaw structure and tooth shape may be completely different between two extremely similar looking fish.(adaptation at play).

Your answer,,,,

Purity is a product of nature moderate to long term.

Hybridization is a product of human intervention and short term nature occurrence,,,,,, (but if the natural hybridization is a winner it continues).

But where it may get grey,,, is locational variances of a specie,,,, typically alounocara,,, if two locations are crossed, it's fundamentally a locational cross and not really precisely called a hybrid,,, yet in the hobby we still label it as hybrid.

It's good to label this hybrid I believe because it sends alarm bells when it's mentioned and proves the point of a big no, no.

Fish can't be compared to dogs or humans.

Dogs have been hybridized to produce all the varieties of pure breeds we have today,,, but all these dogs were not classified as pure till hundreds of years down the track once the genetics had become reasonably fixated.

For humans it's locational but ethics plays a part as war breaks when segregation occurs as we know,,,, no human has ever dared called another a hybrid.

If you break it down and take time to think about all this,, it's not that mysterious,,, we humans have invented words for communication through intelligence, so we will only understand of what we can make of it, but it may not be nessesarily so.

How's that for insight. ????

[myster619]

But what about the Neanderthals? What are they? What does that make us?

[Josh]

This has been discussed to death here and these threads all end up the same way.

I will let this go until it decends into a name calling match.

[Josh]

I disagree with what you are saying about cichlids being classifieds the same way dogs are.

Fish of the same species can live "side by side" in the lake and not crossbreed. This is why they labeled with a location. This allows us to keep lines pure.

Dogs are not consider a breed until they breed true and to a standard. With all hybridised cichlids this could also be applied. Flowerhorns to this day don't not breed true and correct to any species. While some do resemble the parent fish the fish hasn't been around long enough to be a true species. Angels and Discus do breed true but this has take a lot of time to achieve. All three fish are Hybrids that are "accepted" by most hobbiest.

An OB Saulosi is something that isn't and won't be accepted.

[Buccal]

Lol, interpretation and explaining as precisely as possible.

I myself try to cover and cap off all avenues to explain before opposition tries to oppose. So I don't need to explain myself and cause arguments.

The Neanderthals were a different specie of human.

They had much shorter life spans and having a different brain size with only limited intelligence.

They also died out because they were a weaker race.

It's also said that the neanderthal genetics remains present today in the homosapien.

Apparently there were occurrences of female Neanderthal getting pregnant from male homosapien.

[Buccal]

But getting back to the fish.

I've also noted, there is some merit in saying how much of the genetics are similar to each other in lake Malawi.

Discus crossing isn't clean cut hybridizing,,, as I mentioned to precisely describe than just saying plain old black n white hybrid,, it's really better explaining better as locational cross,,,,, this is why it's easier to fixate genetic outcome in offspring.

With flowerhorns, they are true straight out hybrids,,, thus percentages off offspring looks like each of different specie parents and percentages off in betweens.

So it has to be appreciated the hard work of continual selection and continuation off breeding to achieve gene fixation.

Yet if a Malawi species hybridizes (not locational crossing), it's weird how the offspring will all look very similar to each other without much variance,,,,,, still with subtle variance at times.

So the offspring gentics is almost fixated the first round.

I found in freshwater stingrays cross breeding it seems to fall in between all this,,,,, though it's of the subject as they are not fish like humans and dogs.

Stingrays are even more ancient than riftlake cichlids.

When crossing two different ray subspecies,,, the offspring reflect in portioned percentages of each parent and in betweens.

Once the offspring are taken and bred together, the pup appearances of grandparents becomes less in percentage.

When these third generation offspring are bred together they virtually throw nearly all fixated offsprings of in between if selection has been performed to aim at in between.

The way creatures evolve is virtually infinite,,, discussing geneticist beliefs is even shady amongst the professionals of the world.

The intense diversity of riftlake Cichlids is truly incredible when comparing to other fish species around the world.

I keep and have kept many types of fish including fw stingrays,,, but riftlake cichlids is far more interesting, satisfying and for filling than anything I've ever kept, the diversity makes it forever.

[Skippy]

The Wikipedia article on hybrid explains this subject quite well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)

From a taxonomic perspective, hybrid refers to:

1. Offspring resulting from the interbreeding between two animal species or plant species.^[3] See also hybrid speciation.
2. Hybrids between different subspecies within a species (such as between the Bengal tiger and Siberian tiger) are known as intra-specific hybrids. Hybrids between different species within the same genus (such as between lions and tigers) are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or crosses. Hybrids between different genera (such as between sheep and goats) are known as intergeneric hybrids. Extremely rare interfamilial hybrids have been known to occur (such as the guineafowl hybrids).^[4] No interordinal (between different orders) animal hybrids are known.
3. The third type of hybrid consists of crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars within a single species. But it is actually crossbreeding and not hybrid. This meaning is often used in plant and animal breeding, where hybrids are commonly produced and selected because they have desirable characteristics not found or inconsistently present in the parent individuals or populations. This flow of genetic material between populations is often called hybridization.

So to put this into fish terms:

Hybrids between different subspecies within a species such as between the Cyphotilapia gibberosa (Ikola) and Cyphotilapia gibberosa (Kitumba)* are known as intra-specific hybrids

Hybrids between different species within the same genus such as between Cyphotilapia gibberosa (Ikola) and Cyphotilapia frontosa (Kigoma) are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids

Hybrids between different genera such as between Melanochromis parallelus and Pseudotropheus saulosi are known as intergeneric hybrids

Fish can't be compared to dogs or humans.
Dogs have been hybridized to produce all the varieties of pure breeds we have today,,, but all these dogs were not classified as pure till hundreds of years down the track once the genetics had become reasonably fixated.
For humans it's locational but ethics plays a part as war breaks when segregation occurs as we know,,,, no human has ever dared called another a hybrid.

All dogs, from the Great Dane to the Chihuhua, are the same species Canis lupus familiaris. The huge variety of forms you see are the results of selective breeding to enhance certain desirable traits over countless generations i.e. crossbreeding or line breeding.

* Ikola and Kitumba Gibberosa may actually not be different sub-species just different populations of the same species but for the purpose of this example let's all just pretend they are different sub-species until the Ichthyologists working on the classification of the Gibberosa tell us otherwise

[maxib]

No need to say it will cause arguments. Its a scientific conversation. Im not sayimg to start crossbreeding fish and all that. Im more so curious about the taxonomy of these fish. This all started from my previous post about Salousi, msobo or hybrid. If you check the pick of the male there it was sold to me as a saulosi. When it colored up it was obviously not saulosi. I contacted the breeder who then said it was obviously a metriaclima zebra. Then somone commented on my post adding it was probably a hybrid between saulosi, zebra and a peacock. So know I have a zebra peacock saulosi. Check images on google but there is not straight awnser. If something is so difficult to classify then the classification is messed up. But when I went to the breeders house she had a female that looked exactly like my male. Its holding and she sold it to me. Im about to start a knew post to try and id this fish.

[maxib]

Also to those who disagree with my comparison of fish and dogs why isnt a germen sheppard a different species from a rottweiler and so on. Just because a whole bunch of fish are found in the same lake doesnt make them a different species. For the classifists of cichlids to say a reproductive barrier is a sandy bottom between two rocky outcrops and that fish cant swim from one part of a lake to another is ludicrous. The whole point is that cichlids are just a bunch of crossbred interlated subspeices to begin with. A metriaclima zebra is a wild species but is considered a crossbreed. Call me names I dont care. If this has been discussed to dwath why is it when I search hybrids I dont get results coming out my ears.

[Buccal]

Ok you know the facts,,, so what are you getting at then.

We are given these beautiful fish by mother nature, be thankful and do the duties to keep each specie classified and not jumbled.

Skippy good peice there, it's exact terminology.

Sometimes it loses some people, especially beginner or non-scientific type people.

Using a term like "locational cross" actually describes the how and why,,,,, a crossing of two or more different locations.

If the term intra-specific was used, the person listening is likely to ask what that means.

The term "locational cross" explains and describes at the same time.

[Link2Hell]

maxib

most hybrids are infertile is IMO an erroneous comment if you are referring to inter Genera hybrids ........ could it be that

those who dictate Genera are in error and that DNA sequencing is closer than thought despite the check list used to define,

It would be less qualified when talking inter species of the same Genera

due to specific niches in the different Genus a sandy stretch between rock outcrops of reefs can and does

negate your point as most cichlids are not nomadic except for open water Utaka and Piscavores

For the classifists of cichlids to say a reproductive barrier is a sandy bottom between two rocky outcrops and

that fish cant swim from one part of a lake to another is ludicrous

this is the basis for Species Flock or how populations of rift lake cichlids formed speciation and evolved due to

the need to adapt over thousands of years

will you be attending the QCG cichlid convention on March 14 in Brisbane as I would like to hear Ad Konnings reply

to your statement/question

[maxib]

Sorry for posting this topic. Exuse me if I sound like I am trying to disqaulify any experts in this feild. I am not trying to do that. I am only trying to id a particular fish which seems impossible. Maybe cichlids are not nomadic but it is possible that something could force them to move from one location to another. I have been led to beleive the term crossbreed and hybrid aren't the same. I do appreciate the fish nature provides us and acknowledge that nature has self regulating systems especially in terms of hybdridisation. With such a complex topic im not even sure what my question or statement is. Again im not trying to discredit anyone but scientifically speaking one expert cant be the be all end all. I guess my question is why is it so hard to id a particular fish that I have been told is an actual species not a crossbreed.

[Josh]

I can answer your last question.

The reason it is so hard to ID is that it doesn't look like the species should. Color looks wrong, body shape looks wrong. Usually when a person sells you a certain fish and then, when asks, changes the type of fish he sell, tells me that person doesn't know what they are doing and shouldn't be trusted.

Cichlids have been described by many experts. One person is responsible for it all.

[Skippy]

Also to those who disagree with my comparison of fish and dogs why isnt a germen sheppard a different species from a rottweiler and so on. Just because a whole bunch of fish are found in the same lake doesnt make them a different species. For the classifists of cichlids to say a reproductive barrier is a sandy bottom between two rocky outcrops and that fish cant swim from one part of a lake to another is ludicrous. The whole point is that cichlids are just a bunch of crossbred interlated subspeices to begin with. A metriaclima zebra is a wild species but is considered a crossbreed. Call me names I dont care. If this has been discussed to dwath why is it when I search hybrids I dont get results coming out my ears.

A Rottweiler, a german shepherd and a Chihuhua are the same species Canis lupus familiaris. Their DNA sequence is identical, it is the expression of those genes that give them the various appearances but "under the hood" they are the same species.

Cyphotilapia gibberosa and Cyphotilapia frontosa might look very similar but they are different species because they have different DNA sequences.

Ichthyologists go to a lot of trouble catching dozens of specimens then counting scales, counting teeth, measuring the ratio of one body part to another (and in recent times DNA sequencing) to determine whether fish are a separate species or not.

It doesn't matter what semantic gymnastics or pseudo-science you try, a fish with unknown parentage or parents from different species will be regarding by purists and most hobbiest as a hybrids. If you like and enjoy your "hybrid" fish that's no big deal. Enjoy them and take pleasure from keeping them but don't expect everyone to share your joy. For the sake of the hobby in Australia don't muddy the gene pool, it's too small already.

[LithoMan]

i have only been doing this less than 10 years and have no idea what that fish is.(i can guess its this maybe crossed with that and so on.)

people here been breeding and keeping cichlids 40 years and maybe more that are in this topic and can not ID this fish.

My suggestion is the person that sold it to you (is he on this forum ?) ask him to post pics of parents.

Maybe then we can try and help with ID

And the rest of the hybrid stuff and cross bred stuff i stay out of......

[Link2Hell]

Maxib

why feel sorry for starting a thread you ask opinions on because the opinions don't follow the same line of thought ?

I'm no expert and if referring to Ad Konnings then yes he is an expert especially in the rift lake cichlids which is why

if you were attending the conference it would be good to see his reply

as far as identifying a fish that doesn't conform to a type standard it it will most likely be a hybrid of some description

this makes it a near impossible to ID but only guess the parentage

the answer in this post and the other seems to be the same and that is unless you are the breeder it doesn't really

matter what you think the genetic make up is, they would be the only one able to tell you

[maxib]

O.k my question is now pretty much awnsered. Thank you all for the various input. Now I have a good stance on the matter.