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"assorted peacock"


Daryna88

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I have recently noticed a lot of stores coining the term "assorted peacocks" while having tanks of unidentified peacocks and female peacocks, to the point that one of the more established and respected lfs in Adelaide told me that the males are the carriers of genetic material while as the females had no genetic input. Even the 2 biggest national suppliers of fish in Australia sell some of their stock as "assorted".

In my view this promotes hybridization and should be stopped! What are your views on this?

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You cant dictate what a business can and cant do They carry on doing what they have been doing for decades, though in Perth at least I've seen some change (in some shops) but not all. The biggest voice they listen to is education and people not buying them. If they cant sell a product then they are not likely to purchase the fish in the first place. If someone can walk in and point out their errors and then another walks in and does the same then they realize that people are educated purchasers. Or if you have a mate that is thinking of a tank, then try helping to educate them before the purchase.

For anyone that says that genetically, females dont matter then I'd simply stop shopping there. Clearly no idea and its just profit taking. Maybe talk to him slooowly so he may manage some basic comprehension.

I've seen these hybrid arguments come up time and time again. At the end of the day its a matter of staying calm and realizing that this stuff continues to happen, will continue to happen but try and educate people on the importance of stock maintenance. Its why alot of people including myself push the line of maintenance of limited stock so much.

Aquarium shops have been selling hybrids for as long as I can remember. Its a balancing fight between people who enjoy the hobby and people that just want fish that swim around a 2 foot tank, fish die and they just buy more. Or they kill the entire tank doing a 90 percent water change and finally end up here on an educational journey :p

At the end of the day its the private breeders that ensure we have a wonderful hobby.

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You are absolutely right :) unfortunately as long as there is a market for colorful fish there is a market for hybrids and dishonesty :( for myself i am collecting a variety of pure fish which i will breed and make available to the stores I trust. All i can do is keep myself honest and support those who keep honest themselves

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To start with, absolutely, females having no genetical input is bull shiz. (that's actually promotion of hybridization for all fish if that are true blood)........

As link has already mentioned in the other post, if a scientific name can't be put to it, then it's not to be considered as a pure.(unless it's a common fish with little or no alternating variation/location forms,, and clearly pure).

Hybrids sold as hybrids or as designer names ARE NOT dangerous to the hobby and it's purity.

There are equal chances that incorrect identification causes hybrids and straight out specie mixing in breeding tanks causes hybrids.

(how can hybrids cause a problem if they are labeled as hybrid or a designer name ????).

The outlining problem are the breeders that aren't conducting correct practices and certain shops with no idea or not caring.

It's the old saying. "guns don't kill people, people kill people"

It's education and awareness that is the key.

If the fish in question has to be asked to be assessed by others for identification, and if not a obviously variable, then it's to be regarded as a no go zone for breeding and dispersal.

Not at all rocket science,,, just rational thinking.

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Further information.

Wholesalers obtain many fish,,, very big sellers are dragon bloods and marble peacocks.

The mixes of locational variants in them are expressed in the way of of "throw backs",,, which is a scientific term used for the history fish used for crossing is showing up in a percentage in the current fry outcomes.

For example,,, a good 10-20% of blue colored peacocks will always show in batches of marble and dragon blood peacocks.

These are the varients used in past to create the designer peacock,,, showing as a small percentage. (called throw backs).

So these random percentage throw backs, are basically labeled by wholesalers as mixed peacocks,,,,, also anything in question by the wholesaler that causes uncertainty is also thrown into the mixed peacocks to be sold under the correct term. "mixed"

"mixed" = hybrid or uncertainty of specie.

Correctly labeling them like this is safe as houses and poses no threat to true blood line preservation.

Again, it's certain people that cause the problem.

It's not realistic to go around in circles saying lets banish everything that's not pure,, it's just not going to happen.

A quality dragon blood or fire fish is just absolutely stunning and well worth their weight in gold.

Sorry for the rant, but the extremist views in the hobby are very cliche.

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I agree they are pretty fish but they damage our local stock. Its not a labeling issue its a breeding issue (and a conservation issue)

I appreciate your a wholesaler , you are clearly on top of your game, educated etc but at the end of the day not everyone is like you.

People need to know the differences. they need to be steered away from uneducated breeding and failing to cull hybrids because they cant bare to dispose of the fish.

Most of these assorted peacocks are imported from asia as nothing more than assorted peacocks. I know because I know where some of these come from. They get labeled assorted peacocks because thats what they are purchased as. And in bulk. Most are colour fed hormones and after a few weeks the colour fades off and colours are completely random. Then you get someone coming on the forum asking for an ID for something that may or may not be a particular fish and then gets passed off as the legit thing. like Link said in a previous post, peacocks have always been a notoriously bad fish for this topic but its not just about peacocks.

I'll give you an example of a fish that springs to mind. I remember when OB Strigatus suddenly were discovered. They were probably the most pathetic fish I have ever seen since I've been doing this. In no manner did this fish resemble a strigatus. They sold a ton..the person that saved up several thousand before dumping them on the market made a killing as did the shops I guess, but are we supposed to just accept these fish because you can clearly identify them? Now once they have been accepted as OB stigatus surely its ok to breed with legit strigatus?

Edit - should have read the topic title before posting... I'm still sticking to my original view in general about peacocks though and being hybridized or line bred.

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Most people do not care if a peacock is pure, they just want a colourful fish for their tank, assorted peacocks imho are just bought from the wholesaler that way because it is easy. The shop does not need 8 tanks for 8 different species, just lump them into one tank labelled assorted.

Up here in clownsville most would not know an Aulonocara from a Placidochromis, and to be honest a lot can barely spell common words let alone a Malawi scientific name. Juiced up peacocks sell, uncoloured natural do not sell. So many people are not prepared to wait for their fish to colour.

Remember not all are enthusiasts and probably think who gives a rats.

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I have to agree with Buccal's and PlecoSam's view on this.

The regular Joe aquarist will not care (and almost definitely does not know) that the juiced up colourful fish in the LFS is not a pure peacock cichlid. They will just buy the brightest, most colourful fish on display.

Take it home, and when the colour fades, and interest wanes, will just sell it on a site like gumtree or trade it in at the LFS as "assorted peacock" because that is what they bought it as.

Take me for an example. Till I joined the forum a few weeks ago, I did not know Dragon bloods were a hybrid "man made" strain.

Hate to say it, but the core group of people that care about a pure line fish are the enthusiasts that frequent forums, are a part of the local cichlid societies, or conservationists. Just taking a wild guess but I reckon this group would be < 10% of people that have kept cichlids.

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The hobby could be helped by LFS just being honest in what they have for sale

as for the newbie this is their first port of call

Ethics in the hobby it's like any other activity you have those that are honest and

willing to be open and help you in what ever direction you want to go in and then

there are those where it's a cash cow no matter what

it doesn't matter on your views as to wether hybrids are good or bad because

they are part of the hobby and won't be moving out while people only want a

colourful fish and are not interested in pure form of the Genus

It's not until the newbies start to look further into the hobby that they can get

educated in the threat of hybrids can pose in Australia

unfortunately when they buy something one of the first things they do is ask for

an ID on their fish rather than checking it out first or noting the name down but

the worst thing is when they go net fishing and just because they don't know

what it is and it looks like something on the web that's what it must be

books written by knowledgeable people are discarded because every thing is

on the net and if it is it must be true ............ hope fully those that keep their fish

and want to know more search out forums like ACE and PCS and QLDAS to

educate themselves and what is even better is joining a club NSWCS, VCS,

QCG, PCS or just a general aquarium fish group .... us crazies gotta stick together

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Still though,,, a fish labeled assorted peacock is being honest.

How can any responsible breeder with moderate to extreme knowledge get it wrong. (assorted peacock no name).

I truly believe its not hybrids that jeopardize purity (for the most part),,, it's mainly the breeders that are a issue.

The biggest problem with purity destruction is multiple species as breeders in the same tank,,,, these are the major problem generators.

Also just not knowing what specie and wacking a she'll be right mate label on it.

Of coarse hybrids that already are and/but sold as juveniles without knowing till matured.

Hybrids labeled as hybrids or mixed sitting in shops, I truly believe don't contribute as much as the above issues.

Also don't forget that specie popularities die off and species are lost this way,, so when desperation occurs trying to chase them down again,,, the scarceness and possible pures but hybrid looking sometimes makes people think "lost to hybridization", but just naturally dropped of the charts.

All my colonies are strictly single specie tanks.

Oh and Chuck,,,, they weren't marbled strigatus,,, they were being sold as marbled Dimidochromis compressiceps.

These fish were hybridized with marble peacock as when bred continually many offspring were almost totally a throw back of marble peacock appearance.

It's the marble peacock body shape that modified the dimi comp slender shape to be a bit rounder and stubbyer looking closer to a strigatus.

Designer peacocks are here to stay,,,,, so it's best to talk about and educate rather than block out and ignore....

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I'd prefer to say forfilment of entire customer audience of needs and wants lol.

No use in handy capping yourself as a shop,,, it's bloody tuff enough as it is for shops.

There is only one shop that we know that's a stickler to the books in preservation and die hard purity,,, the only one in oz probably, hah hah.

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When the OB dimi's came out they were first advertised as OB strigatus. I remember them because only recently before that there was discussion (at least privately) on whether the first strigatus were legit. There was someone is Australia that had a legit Strigatus but didn't have the opposite sex to breed with..There was a first batch of strigatus that had an odd shape and overly long and the discussion was whether this particular strigatus was bred back with a Dimidiochromis compressicep. Shortly after there was a legit batch that came in and basically the questioning stopped on what was what. Then shortly after that the OB strigatus surfaced but as you would expect there was a debate on the fish. Some people swore by them, the ones paying 60 bucks a fish I'd assume, and the people that laughed at them. After that I saw them labelled as strigatus and comps..whatever fit the bill at the time.

I come from a second angle with line bred fish and its sustainability. Its hard enough maintaining what is in australia already. there are so many different (legit) species available now that is difficult for the hobby to maintain all these fish. Designer fish make it all that more difficult to maintain everything we already have.

Peacocks are a lucky (or unlucky) species as that Link suggested, at least we can reset any serious mess ups.

Its a peacock topic though but as far I'm concerned in my own personal involvement in the hobby, I've always held myself to rigid rules. Its just my personality. I understand that everyone has their own opinion (and flexibility) and I'm not trying to change peoples opinions (especially educated ones and I understand the point) unless they are clearly wrong (ie ob dimi's and other obvious hybrids)

I dont believe line breeding in Australia is needed (especially in peacocks) and preservation of legit species (including localities) far outways lining pockets with profit and tanks with shiney new fish.

I know it will continue to happen (and cichlid societys have been fighting it for a long time) but I believe the role of these forums is to limit damage done to the hobby rather than take the casual approach and except man made varients.

Its like a loaf of bread...you can put sprinkles on it and everyone loves sprinkles but fresh bread is just as good lol

edit typo

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I don't see line breeding is something that's done in australia,, there may be some people claiming they do it, and in context it may be so that they are.

But true effective line breeding comes from far more continuous dedication and perseverance involving very large numbers of mass generations.

It's the hard work done by others that can unravel in a blink of a eye.

So duty of segregation is important at any level, hybrid or pure.......

Don't forget that line breeding isn't only for hybrids, but for pure species to, to bring out the continuation of the better desired individuals.

The profit that hybrids turn out, is actually still contributing to the strength of the hobby having a positive impact on interest in pure fish and the grand scale of all things fish.

As far as sustainability goes,, cost of living in oz is considerably higher in a generalized way, and luxuries like fish keeping are usually the first to be dropped in order to "get buy". Then the industry gets double whammied with stupid regulations that clearly just have no funding making it easier and cheaper to just say no to most imports rather than research and allow most.

Why just have plain bread with butter, when we have the option to have that and the stuff with sprinkles on it to.

More options is a healthier industry, especially dry goods and everything else that unites and bridges the hobby together.

It's all a intertwined relevance to me,,,, "a all part of".

As someone's already mentioned,,, us hardcore die hards with strong beliefs like these are barely 10% of the industry.

And what we think and preach only matters in our world,,,, but don't get wrong, even though our world is so small, it still supports greatly the existence and purity of pure lines,,, and even further, has a definite impact.

We may be the small motor in the beast,,,,, but we are the motor.

Consumers are like the petrol, a never ending consumption that keeps pouring in.

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At end of the day, it's always the bussiness approaches that hold everything together longterm.

Passion approaches IN GENERAL, are weaker and people fall in and out, and structure in this is always fickle when compared to bussiness approach.

Bussiness approaches are more sustainable as its rewarded in payment.

Passion is usually a duty, and at some point turns into a chore.

And before anybody makes a argument out of passion versus bussiness,,,, it's very real that passion and bussiness together are actual in some of us.

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Personally I'm probably on the right and your on the left...they are just personal opinions and hopefully things will pan out in the moderate middle. The two of us will undoubtedly cross in upcoming topics but I respect your opinion because it comes with constructive thought. Its not personal its just well constructed opinion. I'll likely continue to maintain purity as I dont believe the dollar rules...likely ignorance of society as whole though on my part lol

I've done a considerable amount of breeding, kept and maintained probably more africans than alot of people (and I know you have alot as well but thats not what I'm saying). I've sat and studied books cross referencing fish for people, body shape, head shape, thickness of body, patterns, fin shape etc, discussed topics like , are venustus supposed to have more regulated patterns on the body, is it bad breeding etc and can they be line bred back to better patterns. General discussions on fish with people vastly more experienced (and passionate) than me.

I got heavily into breeding and lost my interest (I lived in a 2 bedroom unit with 15-20k litres of tanks through it and the garage, was a chore), bailed for a number of years and I've found myself back at the core of the hobby...sitting down in front of my tanks and enjoying my fish just swimming around the tiny environment I provide them. For me, re-entering the hobby after a break is like starting over again in a much more relaxed state but with even more of an appreciation for the work people do to keep the hobby in a state that isn't full of hybrids and line bred fish.

For me good line breeding is something like electric yellows where a good trait is preferred and the ugly black isn't (especially after so many years of neglect) but there is no crossing of any breed or locality. I know there is not a technical locality for yellows but its an example of a species that went to crap that has slowly crept back due to aussie breeders. Its also an example of local breeders that have spent a long time trying to make a species better...and in Australia. Saulosi is another. Line breeding Dimi comps to have straight noses etc is another. I spent several thousand dollars on albino dimi comps trying to stabilize and strengthen bloodlines to not avail and certainly to no advertised avail. Alot of stuff happens without any recognition or promotion in the hobby. If I'm in the 'hardcore' 10 percent trying to preserve the hobby for what it is then I'm pretty happy to be in it. If there was no-one doing it then the hobby would be in ruins.

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Ob''s and dragon bloods are my only acceptance of locality mixes (crosses).

Anything else hybrid, I don't tolerate.

If I don't supply shops with drgn bloods and Mble pccks, they just ship in from Asian countries,,, and those shipments have all sorts of mongrels amongst.

At least when I supply, they are select notable crosses,,, and the gate is shut to all sorts of uncertainties.

And I still say,,, dragon bloods and marble pccks, don't threaten anything.

Two pure species that look similar and kept together is much more a threat,,,,, so it's particular breeders that are the threat.

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totally agree that there is more threat to Aulonacara from incorrect grouping of unidentified females to males than

with OB and Dragonbloods

if you are unsure of the source consider using something that will jack the colour like White Crane so the female

will show male colour at least you have an idea of what it is then and once you stop feeding the colour will fade

to normal female colour

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wont jacking up the female with white crane cause her to be sterile?

reckon ive read somewhere that they will only remain sterile whilst on the white crane? I could be wrong though.

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