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detrius in tank water quality and circulation


Pennyc

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Hi guys

Sorry for the long winded title I really wasn't sure how to title this query,

We have lost 2 yellow labs to bloat in the last 10 days. Doing a big water change and catching the last ill looking fish we pulled out the rocks. A lot of detrius was settled on top of the rocks and it fell into the water during the water change.

I am not sure how much detrius is normal for a tank to have. We have an Eheim filter running which is over rated for the tank size and an airstone. The spray bar has probably not been doing a good enough job of breaking up the water surface due to its position we are changing that today. Also we are not feeding them for awhile and will cut down on the amount we were feeding which was as much as they could eat in 3 minutes each evening.

Can anyone give advice on how we can improve the job the filter is doing. Should we invest in a powerhead?

Any advice for us as newbies gratefully received. I have read the pins in the other titles but couldn't find the exact answer to this question.

Cheers

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Water is

Temp 26.1

Ammonia 0

Nitrites 0

Nitrates 5

PH 7.8

Eheim 2217 canister

180lt tank

all juvenile fish

4 yellow labs (4-5cm)

6 Red Zebras (3-4cm)

6 Blue cobalts (4-5 cm)

Thanks

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Pull the spray bar of and chuck it in the bin.

The multiple holes break up the jet power compared to one outlet.

A gentle circulation through out tank is what's needed, so there isn't any dead spots for your detrius (waiste/sediment) to settle.

Clean your filter with water out of tank only,,,,, (if you recently haven't cleaned),,,, then take very careful note on the strength of turbulence ejecting out of the outlet. (make sure you well secure outlet at water surface for oxygen,,, don't just rest it so it could drop and lose oxygen transference).

Keep an eye on the turbulence strength coming out of filter.

Eventually it will slightly choke or slow,,, this is time to filter clean.

Eventually you'll fall into a systemic regime in maintenance with out thinking to hard.

As in my other post mentioned bad bacteria,,, it thrives in the dead spots of the aquarium with no turbulence and oxygen.

Adding a power head is a excellent choice (10-15 watts worth should do 180 liters.)

The more rocks or obstacles in the tank,,, the more turbulence needed to get around corners and dead spots.

A correctly set up display tank shouldn't need much or any vacuuming,,,, only in breeding setups where tanks are run for more of a economical outcome to limit power use.

Your excess waiste building up could be result in both dead spots and over feeding.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Thanks we have a jaebao wp-40 powerhead but it would knock the fish about too much (was for marine fish)

Will look into getting a smaller powerhead

You say you lost two fish due to bloat. Bloat is usually caused by some sort of improper food – or too much, even if is the best food available, too much is not good and I have seen Tropheus go down with bloat due to this. If caused by bad tank conditions…the tank would have to be REALLY bad to cause bloat, especially with an electric yellow. If you are feeding as much as they can eat in three minutes once a day, then you are not overfeeding and in fact you could feed this much 2 – 3 times a day. “Overfeeding” generally means food sitting around going off on the bottom of the tank. Problems caused by over feeding usually stem from this, though can be caused also from a poor quality food with has too many “fillers” and too few nutritional benefits. You don’t say what food you use, but if it is NLS, then the cause will not be from poor quality food and if feeding once a day and it is gone in three minutes then your issue would not be food related.

This issue, if bloat if correctly diagnosed, is not one really due to detritus. Excess detritus can lead to high, or higher at a faster rate of nitrate accumulation than would otherwise be possible. A bit of detritus is normal, but I feel it would have to be excessive in the extreme to cause bloat.

A spray bar may affect the strength of a water’s current but it can also spread the impact of a current over a larger area. If the spray bay has say, too few holes…or the holes are too small, this can be a negative on water current as it will be in effect back throttling the max current that pump can produce. Assuming the spray bar is not doing this, then the difference it can make compared to just having one outlet of water coming into a tank will be negalible. It certainly will not be the difference between a fish having bloat or not having bloat. A spray bar can be a very efficient way of breaking the water’s surface, particularly if held above the water’s surface, and splashing into it. This in turn can increase the O2/Co2 turnover at the water’s surface, which is only a good thing.

Bad bacteria thriving in dead spots with no turbulence and oxygen…aside from methane gas build up under the surface of the tank’s substrate, usually caused by a too fine a media, it would be VERY difficult to otherwise have a section of the tank with no oxygen. Those with denitrate filters MUST have an oxygen free zone for the anaerobic bacteria to live – and the aquatist has to set up with difficulty a zone outside the tank to achieve this oxygen free zone. It would be very unusual to have an O2 free zone in a tank, “dead spots” otherwise are not a big thing as it just means there is little to very little water flow/movement at that location. This can also not cause bloat.

A power head can be helpful to increase the water movement at directed places, but once again the lack of this will not cause bloat or even wasting. Fish LOVE water movement, and you would be surprised at what "we" regard as too much, they revel in like kids in a play park.

If you change 1/3 each week of water from your tank, and clean your filter regularly enough that the water flow is not greatly impacted, you are doing fine. Remember too with regard to your concerns over too much detritus in your tank; if it is not in your tank but in the filter due to it doing its job, the detritus is still in the water that forms the volume of water in your tank. The only difference is that in your tank it is visually detracting. Cleaning your filter regularly (taking care not to damage bacteria in any bio zone), will increase the tank’s water movement, and take out the detritus that even in your filter will be increasing your tanks’ nitrate levels. The only other thing I would mention is that I would drop your tank’s temperature down from 26, and go for 22-24ish. 26 just costs you more for no great benefit to the fish.

Overall, I would question your diagnosis of bloat. You mention you lost two fish and that they were yellows. Yellows are very prone to wasting issues, and I wouldn’t be the least surprised if your fish died from this rather than bloat. If wasting, the fish may have had this from before you got it and have nothing at all to do with you.

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CThompson, Penny also had another thread going at the same time which concluded over feeding being the issue.

This thread was more based on maintenance control,,, and also as mentioned in the other thread,, lesion like sores and fleshy open holes.

Usually uneaten food and poor water circulation in area of rotting material will result in bad bacterias.

Two issues and resulting in further secondary outcomes like bloat and open wound like lesions.

Different species subjected to the same problems can have different secondary out break side effects.

While tropheus typically get bloat along with other types of tangs and malawis,,, some species may result in red sore like lesions.

Some fish will succumb to over feeding while the some may get past over feeding but succumb to bad bacterial blooms from excessive food in the water.

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How long has the tank been running? Could simply be new tank syndrome, with the bio filter struggling to keep up with the load.

Feed enough to be consumed in 30 seconds, but feed twice daily. I also like having some redundancy with tank filtration. 2217 should give you enough water movement in a 180L tank but an extra filter, even an air-pump driven sponge filter, will provide excellent bio filtration and water movement. When it comes to African cichlids, there is no such thing as over filtration. having two filters also means that you can clean one filter at a time without causing mini-cycles. Huge water changes can also cause mini cycles, especially combined with excessive filter cleanings.

Of course it could just be bad luck, with some fish that didn't take the shock of being transported ( twice sometimes) before getting to your aquarium. Good luck

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CThompson, Penny also had another thread going at the same time which concluded over feeding being the issue.

This thread was more based on maintenance control,,, and also as mentioned in the other thread,, lesion like sores and fleshy open holes.

Usually uneaten food and poor water circulation in area of rotting material will result in bad bacterias.

Two issues and resulting in further secondary outcomes like bloat and open wound like lesions.

Different species subjected to the same problems can have different secondary out break side effects.

While tropheus typically get bloat along with other types of tangs and malawis,,, some species may result in red sore like lesions.

Some fish will succumb to over feeding while the some may get past over feeding but succumb to bad bacterial blooms from excessive food in the water.

Hi, I didn't see this other thread and all my comments were based of what was said in this thread.

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How long has the tank been running? Could simply be new tank syndrome, with the bio filter struggling to keep up with the load.

Feed enough to be consumed in 30 seconds, but feed twice daily. I also like having some redundancy with tank filtration. 2217 should give you enough water movement in a 180L tank but an extra filter, even an air-pump driven sponge filter, will provide excellent bio filtration and water movement. When it comes to African cichlids, there is no such thing as over filtration. having two filters also means that you can clean one filter at a time without causing mini-cycles. Huge water changes can also cause mini cycles, especially combined with excessive filter cleanings.

Of course it could just be bad luck, with some fish that didn't take the shock of being transported ( twice sometimes) before getting to your aquarium. Good luck

A filter can be cleaned without having any impact that would cause a "mini cycle", provided the filter has a bio zone and it is treated with respect. Respect = being cleaned in water taken from the tank, and not left to dry. I have had in the past ten litre tanks with sponge filters used as a fry grow up. I would have hundreds of fry grown to a certain point before they were shifted to bigger tank/s. Due to this huge load on only a small tank I needed to do massive water changes every two days at least. I would take out 98% of the water, replacing it with pre conditioned, temp, pH and hardness water. I would also clean the sponge filter in the water drained from these tanks (I had five). I did this for ten years and never once lost a fish (fry) from it. Big water changes are only a problem if the tank receiving it do not experience it regularly (that is, the water parameters haven't drifted to far from where they started), and if the water has not been pre prepared. Bacteria from a bio zone are EXTREMLY hardy, just look at the reason for a fluidised bed filter being so successful and you will understand this. You can clean a filter on a daily basis if you wanted, starting afresh with totally new mechanical media - provided the bio zone is only cleaned in waste tank water and is not allowed to dry out.

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^^^^, agreed, I to have worked similar maintenance regimes without a glitch. (true,, a good understanding for natural processes allows one to deal with these things in many different ways rather than one or two cautious ways).

Just heads up as Penny came on for advice only it seems,,, and had typical beginners worry wort syndrome.

It seemed there was a few problems rather than one,,, typical that of a novice set up that gets managed by a family or many owners not knowing who fed last resulting in to many feeds.

I think once back on track as it seemed it did get back on,,, just one boss of the tank and feeding to keep it all good. :)

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Hi guys

I need to go back and read all the posts since I was last on. All was well for two weeks then we lost two more labs just leaving the biggest one.

No signs on injury or illness on the body that we could see they just got listless started hiding started to breathe fast and died.

I will read back on the more recent posts but have no idea what could have caused this the blues and reds are fine and unless we lose the bigger one he is fine too. Could it be bullying ? I haven't seen any aggression and no nipped fins

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  • 1 month later...

Hey penny,

First time reading just your post. If you are running an airpump it's worth investing in a sponge filter or 2? It bumps up the filtration within your tank, provides gas exchange (oxygen) and clears up the detrius floating around in your water. If your concerned about the aesthetics of the tank then hide it behind some holey rock or a large ornament. Hope this helps!

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