Electric Yellow turning black

[nanny]

Recently my electric yellow started swimming near the surface and hiding. He is usually happy and active and he just isn't anymore. I isolated him but he just doesn't seem to care about anything. I have a picture but don't know how to upload it onto the forum. Please help.

http://www.aceforums.com.au/uploads/gallery_24921_506_58383.jpg

[Buccal]

Not a clear photo at all.

What I can make of it,,, it's the beginning and now onset of Malawi bloat.

Usually caused by over feeding.

You will need Metrodizinole or Dimetrodizinole (spelling slightly incorrect). This is a antibiotic that will fix the internal infection.

[Josh]

That's a really big call. I can't see any sign bloat from that picture. Yellows aren't a fish that are prone to get bloat.

The color change is more likely stress related. This fish isn't well but I couldn't tell you what is wrong with it with the information provided

[noxious_nasties]

I agree with Josh on the stress. Yellows have a tendency to show more black when they are stressed.

I disagree with Buccal on the bloat. You'd see more change around the stomach region, which still looks quite healthy to me. I'd advise against the use of Metronidazole - using antibiotics at the first sign of trouble comes with a host of problems and it's part of the reason so many things are developing resistance.

Think of something that has changed recently. A few examples could be introduction of new fish. Breeding of other fish including another electric yellow male (which has caused stress on this fish). Change of tank decor, water spike in certain nutrients, pH change. Water change with different chemicals/additives. Could be anything really, but you won't know unless you know what's changed and what is normal for your tank.

[Buccal]

I've seen yellows get bloat enough times in the past 15-20 years to know they can Definetely fall victim.

The body on this fish appears (but still not certain due to poor photo quality),, to be ever so slightly enflamed.

The eyes are not sitting back inside of its head as per normal.

It could be another type of internal infection also,,,,, that antibiotics would likely work on.

Behavior explained by the owner coupled with that pic,,,,, could be the onset of what I said.

Antibiotics will usually clear up symptoms related to other problems also.

Quarantining a fish of that size in a fry saver that small won't improve it's mental well being anyway.

But if it resumes back to eating,,,, consider adding more fish to spread aggression, and making sure of not excessively overcrowding.

My mentioning of bloat,,, is just a probability that could be confirmed if the owner notices body swelling and eye protrusion.

Constipation is also another matter that exists with entry level fish keepers which sometimes appear like the onset of bloat but not.

One day a week of fastening keeps fish healthy whilst letting beneficial bacteria in filters play catch up.

Could be just aggression,,,,, could be,,,, don't have much to go on in any which ways,,, probability alerting.

[Buccal]

I've had another look at the pic.

There is a look to a fish in its eyes when bloat begins to occur.

This fish has that look.

I'm not saying I'm 100% right though,, lol.

[noxious_nasties]

As a strong advocate against those who are antibiotics happy, I would advise against using antibiotics unless you have reasonable support to prove they will actively treat the cause and ensure the survival of a fish in it's given condition and environment. Understanding the difference that a treatment provides such as a one that acts topically opposed to targeting the root cause is a fundamental point that needs to be known in order to obtain a successful cure. 15 years or not Buccal, the support of antibiotics as a first line treatment is an attitude I strongly discourage and encourage all to remove from the hobby. All too often people say use metro at the first sign of illness, but I'd love to see the statistics on whether or not the antibiotic would have been necessary for the fish to survive and/or recover.

There is a reason medications like that are prescription only, and you should take note that the purchase of them is an offence unless it is through the right distribution network.

Half of the symptoms you mentioned show a cause that can be fixed by human intervention:

constipation - use better food, note feeding regime.

Internal infection - check and maintain good water quality

Aggression - know the effect of tank mates.

On the note of adding more fish - why would you do this if there is a sick fish with the cause unknown? To make new fish potentially succumb to the same issue? Or to add more potential problems into the water? Surely you would agree it's best to ensure the problem is identified and/or fixed before you even consider adding more living things.

I would advise that if you are going to treat with medications you do it in a separate tank of smaller water volume. That way your treatment is limited to that fish and that quantity of water.

As we should all be aware, prevention is better than cure. There is no point treating mindlessly with antibiotics because of a fear of losing fish. Your better off accurately identifying the problem first and then addressing it with passive methods that don't pose environmental hazards.

As another word of caution. Those of you heavily treating your tanks with medications, just be aware that certain biological strains you are developing in the tank can be transferred to humans.

[Buccal]

Before you torch.

I said add more fish when the problem has resumed back to normal and fish is again eating,,,, (if aggression is a problem this may help).

It's not often once a fish has obtained bloat,,, that it will recover,,, so quarantine and antibiotics is ALMOST the only way for recovery.

Like most things, especially as you mentioned a good reason for the law of prescription for use,,,, there is a time and place for every treatment.

I merely have stated a possible conclusion of bloat,,, and days further on, if the fish does have bloat,,,, then antibiotics is the only way out.

I personly that utilize the capacity of 58,000 liters over all for breeding/rearing fish,,,,, will most of the time let any fish that becomes weak due to minor sicknesses just die.

Even the best of best fish keepers/breeders will face a problem here and there at some point.

I also strongly detest use of antibiotics freely,,,,, as i think your rant is really of another subject.

Metro or DMZ along side of one or two other treatments are very worthy for blasting away the dreaded Hex and many other nasty internal protozoan parasitic microscopic organisms.

If any fish are obtained as a import from Germany,,,,, I would advise EXTREMELY VERY strongly to treat these fish in quarantine with DMZ or Metro on your receival.

Over seas and Germany is seeing and influx of internal protozoan disease that cause mainly waisting (hollow guts).

Precautionary DMZ treatment of this in early stages will knock it for six in young fish.

Only one treatment in food once received.

We don't want this getting about oz.

You see, there is a correct way for use in these situations,,,, but again,,,, a loved fish or expensive fish with bloat really only has a hope if treated with this,

I don't think the person that started this thread is breeding and punching out fry and then souping the lot up with DMZ.

Bad effects of DMZ is really only a problem when used by breeders to often.

Basically the fishes being bred would have weakened immune systems.

I have a feeling the electric yellow saga in previous threads of mass waisting issues may be the immune system genetically degraded from excessive DMZ use.

[nanny]

I have a 20cm female venustus who has been particularly nasty lately but the yellow has never been bothered by nasty tankmates before. If it is stress though what can i do about it. My yellow is clearly not happy in the little tank.

[nanny]

i have a 20cm female venustus who has started being quite aggressive but tank bullies have never bothered my yellow before? If it is stress though what do i do. I know she is not happy in the little tank.

http://www.aceforums.com.au/uploads/tn_gallery_24921_506_1755.jpg

[Buccal]

Well, that's the thing with smallish tanks,,, it may after all be aggression.

Buying small cichlids and putting in small tanks gives minimal time till they are to big for the tank and compete for room resulting in death.

If you must keep cichlids in a smallish tank,,, then do a bit of research or asking to find out mature sizes.

Venustus grow to be large beasts.

There are plenty of cichlids to choose from suited for smaller size aquariums.

[nanny]

Not sure what small is - my tank is 120L. So what can i do about the stress if that is what it is? I have advertised to sell or swap the venustus but have no takers so far. I have more pictures in my gallery but am technologically stunted.

[noxious_nasties]

This will be my final post on this thread. If you need further help Nanny, please PM me and I will do my best to help if I can. It'd be good to see some water parameters.

Buccal, if making suggestions to all potential causes is a crime, send me in for a lifetime of prison. I'm sure you find a doctor will ask questions to obtain the nature of the problem before sending you in for chemo.

Before you torch.
I said add more fish when the problem has resumed back to normal and fish is again eating,,,, (if aggression is a problem this may help).

Actually you didn't, you just said if it starts eating again... when no mention of the fish not eating was ever mentioned. Starting to eat again and being 'cured' are two different things and we wouldn't be having this conversation otherwise.

But if it resumes back to eating,,,, consider adding more fish to spread aggression, and making sure of not excessively overcrowding.

I don't know why you keep mentioning your stock capacity and years in the hobby. Is that suppose to justify your call?

Considering your first call was the use of Metronidazole without even being able to spell it or try to diagnose the surroundings, wouldn't it have been wiser to ask for further details before making suggesting such a treatment?

Constipation is also another matter that exists with entry level fish keepers which sometimes appear like the onset of bloat but not.
One day a week of fastening keeps fish healthy whilst letting beneficial bacteria in filters play catch up.

Could be just aggression,,,,, could be,,,, don't have much to go on in any which ways,,, probability alerting.

Why is it that only after further observations were called on that you started to expand your potential cause? From someone who says treat for bloat, but then says it could be two human related factors, you've got me fooled on how those other 58000 liters worth of fish would fair. But then again you did say "most of the time any fish that becomes weak due to minor sicknesses just die."

Sorry for going against your 20 years of wisdom.

Hope your fish gets better Nanny.

[Buccal]

Small fry !!!

[Link2Hell]

Hi Guys

please use emoticons with text, this can help reduce mis-reading a post

I really hate it when you have been writing a reply only to have all your

thoughts disappear into cyber space 3 ... minutes wasted

Nanny you need to add more information

is he showing any other signs other than going dark

Tank size, as 120 lt can come in any configuration and the footprint of the

tank is important

tank mates

water parameters

filtration

feeding

events when the fish changed like water change or filter clean

a pic of the tank would be good

the fish shows normal body configuration for a male yellow

and is in a stress a pattern

it may be that the Venustus has just decided it doesn't like him

an is relentless in chasing him around the tank

a quarantine tank is better than a fry save but you use what you have

metro and dimetro are the go to treatments for flagellated protozoa

this appears as heavy breathing, hanging in a corner either upper or

lower tank layers and stringy white feces

it is hard to treat a specific fish if it is in fry saver and still in the main tank

not to mention you are treating with more meds and also treating fish that

are normal this is what increases disease resistance to medications

I would give him a week by himself in a hospital tank with out food

and see if he changes back to a normal colour and responds to you for food

remember every one respect another members opinion and don't take or give

what could be conceived as offence as per terms of use

[Buccal]

Intelligent perspective,,,, I admit this avenue above is what should have taken place to begin with.

As Josh pointed out,, yes I jumped the gun.

[undercoverbrother]

Link2Hell, hit the nail on the head.

I was surprised when skimming from start to finish that not many asked about water parameters.

The starting point when anything goes wrong is a water parameter check (at least PH , NH4 , NO2 , NO3). From there we can attempt to figure a plausible plan of action.

Like Chris said, the more information we have, the better we can help.

[Wang wang]

He Looks a bit puffy to me, could just be well fed A Blackish yellow is stressed.

If nothing else has changed.....for some immediate action..... I would remove the big Hap. Do a water change or two. Cut down on the dry food for a bit. See above for detailed info.

Hope he makes it.