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Ducksta condensation can get inside an air tight container so it CAN get inside a heater.

If it's airtight, then there is no way condensation can form unless there is moisture in there to begin with (which I doubt, but could be wrong).

If there is condensation on the inside, it's probably from a small leak. Just the constant heating and cooling of the glass and the eventual decay of the rubber will usually let a bit of water in over time.

Blake, I've had several expensive heaters fail and either get bad condensation or fully flood. I've never taken one back because it's always been longer than the warranty period. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has done (or not done) this.

I personally don't completely submerge heaters unless they are in an area where the water level can change (a few sumps I've had in the past).

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Ducksta condensation can get inside an air tight container so it CAN get inside a heater.

If it's airtight, then there is no way condensation can form unless there is moisture in there to begin with (which I doubt, but could be wrong).

Condensation can get into an air tight container, We use the same method in setting panna cotta in the kitchen, Thats also a way that industrial pressure cookers work.

No leak is needed at all as when the water and heat react they make a fog on the inside of the heater.

Get an air tight container and submerge it with a rock in your tank and see if there are droplets of water inside.

Oh also I hear thats how they extract water from gum leaves also wink2.gif

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no.gif

Condensation is only formed where moisture (ie. liquid) is present.

If it is 'airtight', nothing can get in, by definition.

Heaters are manufactured in a vaccuum to ensure no liquid is inside. If there is liquid (ie. condensation) inside then it was either there prior to use, or it has a leak.

If you are so certain that fog/condensation can breach water tight seals, write a paper on how it contradicts the laws of science and get it published wink.gif

Also pressure cookers are airtight yes, but condensation/moisture does not get in, it comes from what is in there cooking.

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no.gif

Condensation is only formed where moisture (ie. liquid) is present.

If it is 'airtight', nothing can get in, by definition.

Heaters are manufactured in a vaccuum to ensure no liquid is inside.  If there is liquid (ie. condensation) inside then it was either there prior to use, or it has a leak.

If you are so certain that fog/condensation can breach water tight seals, write a paper on how it contradicts the laws of science and get it published wink.gif

Also pressure cookers are airtight yes, but condensation/moisture does not get in, it comes from what is in there cooking.

Hmmmm i wasnt aware that preserved cinnamon had a high water content. Because thats what I use in a pressure cooker to make rhubarb sorbet so i supposse everything i have learned to do with preserved spices must be aconspiracy against the heater companies?

Also answer this, If a car boot is completely sealed then how does water get in? I dont usually hose the boot of my mothers car but i must have according to you for my theory to be right?

Another example how does mould appear on clothes that have been kept in a closet for years with no contact with water? Im pretty sure thats why they sell "hippo" moisture eaters as i am also sure people dont make a common practice of watering old clothes.

According to dictionary.com the meaning for Condensation are as follows:

Physics.

The process by which a gas or vapor changes to a liquid.

The liquid so formed.

In the words of Ali G BOOOYYAAAKASHA!

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There is 'moisture' in air, that is one of the most basic of all facts - if there wasn't, we would all die rolleyes.gif Our atmospheric Air is not a pure gas, but a combination of a whole hell of a lot of them, waiting for the right triggers to begin chemical processes like bonding together to form condensation.

Heaters are made in a vaccuum, in order that nothing that can liquify be present in the unit at point of manufacture.

Condensation (liquid) can only form when certain gases combine (ie. Hydrogen and Oxygen - water) Most pure gases do not have a liquid state, and certainly none would liquify at any temperatures in an aquarium heater. (liquids occur at cooler temps than gases, and the aquarium heater would very rarely be cool wouldn't you agree?)

So explain to me again what you are BOOOYYAAAKASHA'ing about.

And I will again refer you to high school science books.

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There is 'moisture' in air, that is one of the most basic of all facts - if there wasn't, we would all die rolleyes.gif Our atmospheric Air is not a pure gas, but a combination of a whole hell of a lot of them, waiting for the right triggers to begin chemical processes like bonding together to form condensation.

Heaters are made in a vaccuum, in order that nothing that can liquify be present in the unit at point of manufacture.

Condensation (liquid) can only form when certain gases combine (ie. Hydrogen and Oxygen - water)  Most pure gases do not have a liquid state, and certainly none would liquify at any temperatures in an aquarium heater.  (liquids occur at cooler temps than gases, and the aquarium heater would very rarely be cool wouldn't you agree?)

So explain to me again what you are BOOOYYAAAKASHA'ing about.

And I will again refer you to high school science books.

Im not talking about atmospheric air at all, And by the way condensation starts as a vapour which in turn can only form a liquified state if the temperature drops at an alarming rate.

I have also found a site that maybe able to help you understand the basic concept of condensation in a meteophoric perspective. It also has easy to follow diagrams with pretty colours LOL.gif

http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/m.../cond/home.rxml

so maybe you should start digging around for those old science books of yours wink2.gif

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Ducky and Josh are right here, and they have been from the start.

Unless your heater is clearly labelled as 'submersible', you should not have it fully submersed.

I know Jager heaters are fully submersible, but do not know of any other brands.

My heaters are not fully submersible, yet they are still fully submersed. I have condensation (leaks) aparent in a few, yet they all still work for me for now. I'll be chucking a lot of them in Spring and getting new ones for next winter.

Blake, I wont be taking them back to the lfs because I am in a similar position to ViS, mine are all outside the warranty period. Just because you dont get them back, doesn't mean they wont fail if run submersed.

So take the risk, take the chance, do what you want (as I am) but please do not suggest that all aquarium heaters are submersible. That's why they have a water level indicator on them smile.gif

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Lets have a look at the sub-title of that page shall we

"the conversion of water from a gas into a liquid "

Again, I fail to see your point, there should be no WATER inside a heater EVER, whether it be in solid, liquid or gaseous state.

IF there is water vapour inside a heater it has been manufactured poorly, or has begun to leak.

Water can only condense where both hydrogen and oxygen molecules are present, by manufacturing the heaters in a vacuum, neither gas should be present inside the heater, therefore there should never be condensation inside the heater tube.

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Teflon, you missed my point. If it's "airtight" and by that definition, no air can enter, then obviously no water can enter.

Obviously that means there is already water in there to begin with if they form condensation when heated. I don't buy that at all, or many heaters would have rust already forming in them, on the coil etc, due to sitting on the shelf in the shop.

Not sure how pressure cookers etc work, but if it's airtight, no water could possibly enter either (water being much more dense than air).

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Lets have a look at the sub-title of that page shall we

"the conversion of water from a gas into a liquid "

Again, I fail to see your point, there should be no WATER inside a heater EVER, whether it be in solid, liquid or gaseous state.

IF there is water vapour inside a heater it has been manufactured poorly, or has begun to leak.

Water can only condense where both hydrogen and oxygen molecules are present, by manufacturing the heaters in a vacuum, neither gas should be present inside the heater, therefore there should never be condensation inside the heater tube.

Wow!

Is that Ducky or Dave posting? shock.gif

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I have just performed an experiment of my own.

I used an air tight Glass canister(4 mil i think) "maxell williams" with a vacuum seal.

I put boiling water on the inside put the lid on and let it sit for a few minutes.

Hey presto "Condensation on the outside" now if it was true that an air tight object could not get a "frosting" on the outside then i must have just broken a few mathematical and scientific lores according to ducksta.

I will put pics up tomorrow

Also these retail for $34 and am told they are top of the range

So Einstein here i come LOL.gifLOL.gifLOL.gif

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what does that prove? If you put the water on the inside then put the lid on it, of course it will get condensation on the outside as the air is colder

You have just trapped hot air in glass. Nice work

*EDIT* beat me BaZ

How are you going to create a vaccum in your glass?

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what does that prove? If you put the water on the inside then put the lid on it, of course it will get condensation on the outside as the air is colder

You have just trapped hot air in glass. Nice work

Least i contributed something usefull to the thread rolleyes.gif

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ok firstly i dont get the pressure cooker analogy!

A pressure cooker works because it is mostly sealed, except maybe a safty valve to release any excess pressure.

they work because as the stew or what ever is heated it expands this creats pressure. this pressure cause the water and flavours to be forced back into the meat etc for added tenederness, and flavour!

or more specifically, as the temperature increases the liquid increases in volume. the rate of movement within the subatomic particles aslo increases, if this rate of motion reaches a certain pressure than the particles will try to escape from the waters surface, As the pressure Above the water etc will not be sufficient to contain them, oops the water boils...in a pressure cooker the PRESSURE in the pot prevents the water from boiling up to about 120 deg , this also applies in a cars radiator....

did you know that in a vacum water boils, when it is still cold!!!! due to no outside pressure, bioling water on mount everest is only about 65degrees due to the lack of pressure. tjhis is one reason pressure cookers were invented, so those fools climbing very high mountins is bloody cold wet, snowy areas can have a nice cuppa

So as for the heater condensation thingy, when heaters are made, YES their may be very small amounts of moisture in there, even in a vacumm (if it was a prerfect vacum the heater would implode) also the componants may have a moisture content..these componenet will dry out over time/as the degrade and go britle.

So as an old heater heats up, the pressure inside may increase to a point were the free vaporised moisture can condensate on the inside. you may notice this diapears as the heater cools down again. And i dont think it would be enought to cause any dramas... if it is a new heater that is getting condensation, then maybe it is a faulty item or made during a humid day, or not in a vacumm, or you possibly do have a leak...

But back toi the point , yes read th einstructions and see what is writton on the heater, my cheapies have both a do not place this point deeper than 60cm, and a minimum depth line.

I plce my heaters on a 45deg angle as earlier mentioned ,because hot water flowing up over the thermostate will cause it to incorrectlay, prematurely turn off, but will eventually do its job.

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Well,

I'm so glad I asked this question! LOL.gif

Now let me get this right:

1. Look at the heater for the minimum water level mark. dry.gif

2. Ensure it says "can be submerged". woot.gif

Subscribe to "Science Today" or keep reading this posts answers. thumbup.gifthumbup.gif

Geez, we generate some indepth tooing and frowing sometimes! blink.gif

cheers

glenn

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G'day Glen

So have you learnt something or what?

PS. I keep them submerged all of the time except during water changes where maybe I will have a bit protruding out of the water, but never any part of the heater element. Although I suspect that this practice of mine may actually shorten the life of the heater, but who knows? dntknw.gif

Oh yes and do you reckon that Science Today will help?

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