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German f1


fecat

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Why in only Germany they got the superior quality stock and they are so desirable? you often hear German F1 and F2. what about other country? If a reputable breeder import the wild stock and breed them then the quality should be the same, or even higher.

what is the history about Germany that made their fish stock so desirable in the world? why the demand for Aussie F1 or F2 are not the same compare with German?

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There are many countries that have quality fish, but Germany is one the the countries that Australia can import from relatively easily. They also have a massive aquarium trade which means there is breath and deepth to their industry, particualry for African cichlids. They also import directly from the lake(s) with litlle restrictions and are much closer in terms of travels time than Australia.

Asia is good but more for tropicals and gold fish.

If someone imports wildcaughts and breeds them in Australia, I agree, as you say there should be no difference in quality, assuming they are keep in quality conditions. Having said that I think there can be too much emphasis on "wildcaught", "F1", and "F2" labelling here, it always comes down to the individual quality, appearance and health of the fish, not just that is is F1 etc.

Cheers

Grant

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There are many countries that have quality fish, but Germany is one the the countries that Australia can import from relatively easily. They also have a massive aquarium trade which means there is breath and deepth to their industry, particualry for African cichlids. They also import directly from the lake(s) with litlle restrictions and are much closer in terms of travels time than Australia.

Asia is good but more for tropicals and gold fish.

If someone imports wildcaughts and breeds them in Australia, I agree, as you say there should be no difference in quality, assuming they are keep in quality conditions. Having said that I think there can be too much emphasis on "wildcaught", "F1", and "F2" labelling here, it always comes down to the individual quality, appearance and health of the fish, not just that is is F1 etc.

Cheers

Grant

Great answer Grant, even the comment regarding 'too much emphasis' etc at the bottom. Why is it that Tropheus keepers for example have such a hold on this concept, when many other species from the same Lake aren't sold with "wild", "F1", "F2" etc. handle at all? The "wild", "F1", "F2" handles are in reality a comment on the quality of a fish's colour and/or level of in breeding. That doesn't mean a breeder that is selling F23 (?) hasn't got good fish simply because of the distance it has been from the lake.

In addition to this answer of Grant's; as some hobbyists have a good name (such as Grant) due to quality, so does Germany, have a greater name than Asia, who are reputed to not be so concerned regarding crosses etc. That is, if you buy a locality and species "X" from Germany, you can have more faith in getting what you paid for than if you bought it from Asia. In reality, there will be good and bad breeders in both locations, but over time, Germany has proved the better bet.

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When a breeder or individual claim that their stock is wild caught, F1, F2, you can't really prove it but take their word for it. it is not fair for the breeder who is honest and have the stock they claimed. Anyone can claim their stock is F1, F2, German F1, F2, etc. I really don't see the point sometime. and it is not good for the fish industry.

In regards to Tropheus, I myself have kept a colony in the past. When I was setting up colony I went to many different breeders to try to get as many different bloodline as I can to maintain the quality. however, I found that most of the breeders out there got the same stock from the same breeder. It took me a while to find two breeders who has different bloodline, one claimed that their stock was German F2.

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Where do I begin...?

Germany would have to be the world’s largest importer and exporter of

fish from the rift lakes, with the US a close second. Infact the

majority of foreigners working on the lakes are German. Restrictions on

importing wild fish in Germany are very relaxed with most fish

allowed. As for Australia we have very strong business ties with

Germany but not with the US, this as well as licensing laws make

almost impossible to bring in from the US or most other countries. As

with Asia while they do focus on tropical’s and gold fish, a strong

African cichlid industry is present though after seeing first hand

these fish I personally won't import them. The only difference between

German f1 and Australian f1 is that the German fish is new blood in

our tiny gene pool. The better quality fish f1 or f2 or even wild, the

chance of that fish showing true colours and spawning more frequently

is going to be much higher. There is plenty more to ad but I will

leave it for someone else’s as typing on my iPhone is getting to me!

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OK I do not claim to be an expert on any of this.

But I do have some comments to make. Most of my knowledge is related to SA cichlids from Germany, rather than African gold fish.

The Germans have been importing and breeding many species of SA cichlids for longer than any one else. Many of these species are line bred for certain colour traits, for example Blue rams and double red Apistogramma agassizii. One thing the Germans are known to do is cull many fish that show small signs of imperfections or deformities. This ensures the continued quality of the fish for sale.

The "wild", "F1", "F2" handles are in reality a comment on the quality of a fish's colour and/or level of in breeding.

F1, F2 etc does not comment on the quality of the colour of a fish. The usage of F1 in the aquarium trade is a bastardisation of the term as it relates to the science of genetics. In the aquarium trade each F number represents the generational distance of the fish in question from the original wild caught parents.

As for Asian bred cichlids. There has long been rumours of growth hormones and colour enhances being used when raising fry. There is also a belief that they do not cull fish, so weaker and deformed fish contribute to the gene pool of thier line bred species. How much of this is try, I do not know.

I do know there is a huge gap in quality in the double red apistogramma agassizii that I have owned that were German imports, compared to the Asian bred double reds I have seen and owned. Early to mid last year I saw some German imported Blue acaras that came through BayFish and were definately of a much higher quality than I have seen in 3 or 4 years.

As for the quality of Australian cichlids, well that's a massive debate, that encompasses many areas worth discussing. Limited genetic pool, how the introduction of the allowable import list has impacted the gene pool and the loss of many species to the hobby, misidentification leading to crossbreeds proliferating in the hobby, how the Asian fascination for "Balloon" and "Long Fin" fish has impacted the hobby, do all Aussie hobbiests cull undesirable fish before they sell to aquariums or other hobbiests.

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As for the quality of Australian cichlids, well that's a massive debate, that encompasses many areas worth discussing. Limited genetic pool, how the introduction of the allowable import list has impacted the gene pool and the loss of many species to the hobby, misidentification leading to crossbreeds proliferating in the hobby, how the Asian fascination for "Balloon" and "Long Fin" fish has impacted the hobby, do all Aussie hobbiests cull undesirable fish before they sell to aquariums or other hobbiests.

:thumbup: right on the money :thumbup:

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When dealing with fish i only look at Wild Caught, German Bred or other

F1 F2 etc mean absolutely nothing to me as i have seen fish sold as F1 and all they were, was fish bred from unrelated parents and not wild caught, so tread lightly IMO when people bandy that type of thing around, too many people exploit the F1 etc to try and gain more money.. :thumb

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The "wild", "F1", "F2" handles are in reality a comment on the quality of a fish's colour and/or level of in breeding.

F1, F2 etc does not comment on the quality of the colour of a fish. The usage of F1 in the aquarium trade is a bastardisation of the term as it relates to the science of genetics. In the aquarium trade each F number represents the generational distance of the fish in question from the original wild caught parents.
No argument on the correctness of the comment, but I would say that from the hobbyist point of view, that is, from the purchasing end of the situation, that is the underling belief behind the desire for f1/f2 etc.

As others have commented, whether or not they are as advertised is another matter, and the truthfulness is probably largely resting on the reputation of the seller (fly-by-nighter or in for the long haul).

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The terms wild caught and F1 etc.. do get used by people fraudulently.

Not always but I have noticed recently fish labelled as such. When I know with good certainty where the fish originated from and the actual breeder is not saying wild caught or F anything, that yet others are.

It does irritate me, with our restrictions that people use the term wild-caught for spp not legally importable. Especially when I am quite certain they were locally bred. It raises red flags with the authorities unnessarily.

F0= wild caught

F1= young from wild caught

If one said German F1 it should mean fish bred in Germany from wild parents imported into Australia.

But some people beleive it means fish bred from fish imported from Germany.

All I can say is tread VERY lightly when purchasing fish labelled as wild-caught, especially if not on the import list. Chances are quite high that they are not wild-caught.

Also note that wild-caught fish are so much more difficult to acclimatise and breed.

Personally I would prefer F1 over WC any day.

Cull well, and purchase from good breeders and it does not matter, the quality should be great.

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Also note that wild-caught fish are so much more difficult to acclimatise and breed.

Personally I would prefer F1 over WC any day.

Cull well, and purchase from good breeders and it does not matter, the quality should be great.

I find this to be half true, as a display fish yes wild caught are no good as they are often too timid, and would led to the fish being over stressed and unhappy. When it comes to breeding, you cant beat wild caught, due to the lack of human interference the fish tend to hold full term and spawn more frequently.

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I have found that Wild caughts breed well. Some species will always be harder, but I have seen fish spawning while in Quarantine.

I think people tend to "baby" wild fish more, believing they are so much harder to keep, when, from my experience, if you keep any fish properly then wilds are no harder to keep.

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