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Minimum KH, PH on a new tank


mjoconr

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Hi All

I've started setting up a tank which I've been talking about under the South Australian section of the forum. (I've since realised that this was the wrong place, but not sure how to get it moved)

I was planning to pickup six Labidochromis caeruleus (Electric Yellows) tomorrow, so I was double checking my water stats and found that the KH had dropped from 8 to 6 in a couple of days. I know from my Goldfish days that moving the KH up quickly is a bad idea.

So my question is can I put the fish in while the KH is 6 and the PH is 8.2 ?

The water from the mains here has zero KH and a PH of 7, so I'm always adding calcium carbonate.

Thanks

Mike

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6 is not ideal but it's still relatively stable.

You will risk ph crash/stability if KH is 4 or less.

Calcium carbonate is not that soluble so reaching a intended KH level can be drawn out and possible to over shoot what your aiming for.

I run KH at 14 in my breed room due to excessive bioloads in circulating 36000 liters.

Over 30 full size FW stingrays really get the beneficial bacteria in bio filters working which in turn depletes the KH.

So we know 14 is safe for all Malawi and Tang species as I have over 150 species with all doing fine. (rays and cichlids in same circulating water).

If your filter has past first stage maturation,,, then it's likely a little KH has been taken up,,, other chemical changes take place also that gives lower readings depending what's in water supply.

Use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), as this will dissolve instant and give you a immediate reading until you get where you want.

You can raise it up to 8kh with sodium bicarb then add a little Calcium carbonate which may hold the 8 or raise to 9 as it partially slowly dissolves.

Whilst its great to get some calcium in the water,,, it's best to use calcium chloride as it will raise GH and having the higher GH will help stabilize the KH more,,, they work hand in hand similar to KH stabilizing the Ph.

So sodium bicarb with calcium carbonate and calcium chloride would serve you fine

Mess around with 20 liters in a bucket from your water supply.

Once you work out what's needed in portions simply divide it into your tank literate,,,, then only add the volume of portions of a water change volume amount.

I use

Sodium bicarbonate

Magnesium sulphate

Calcium chloride

Potassium chloride. (but only very small amounts as it boosts algae growth).

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I've tried to keep above simple as possible.

I can ramble on ten times longer than that lol.

Sorry,, your question. "So my question is can I put the fish in while the KH is 6 and the PH is 8.2 ?"

Yes, should be ok,,, but best to change it before fish go in,,, this way they only undergo one change.

Your ph is good,,, but with further adjustments it'll likely increase a little,,, but that's all good.

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Hi Buccal

Thanks for your long post. :notworthy:

Would you mind giving some indication of the amount of each of these compunds you would put in a tank and how I might test or make sure there at the right level ?

Also I'm going to have to push the KH up slowly as I have a small numbrer of fish in the tank all ready (the Goldfish will be moved tomorrow, but Brislenose

are all ready there)

Thanks
Mike

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Even though for every increment extra is up to 5-10 times more over, I wouldn't get to fussy with a slow increase to much because your virtually already there,,, but over a few days is fine.

Telling you how much of what of each to put in is a how long is a piece of string thing.

It depends on the actual additives you decide to use and the current status of your existing water.

You could leave how it already is and likely it'll be ok.

But some like to get it to a specific.

You'd have to check your GH first as your KH has dropped a little, which maybe has depleted through a process and may not have depleted so quick if GH was a little higher,,,, so it's possible you may have a GH level that could be Raised a touch,,, but with your already given readings,,, the GH would still be close to sufficient.

I run GH 18. KH 14. But it's breeding purposes.

Add three teaspoons of each of what you decide to use at a time then test half hour after,,,, make sure your water is breaking surface to keep oxygen up as this alters readings when low in oxygen.

As I already said use a bucket for supply water to work how much additives are needed then apply the calculation to the water changes.

Using calcium carbonate you cannot add and test half hour later as its dissolve rate is near on nil short term.

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Hi Buccal

Thanks for your comments, I purchsed a GH kit today and found that both FH and KH where about 6. I added the six new fish this after noon, so I'll have to push things up very slowly.

I asked the breeder and the local aquarium store owner (who has a lot of Cichlid's) about the KH, GH and the comment from both of them was they never check it as they just change the water a lot.

Thanks again

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Just remember, it's not just a question as to wether to put addititives in to alter or not to.

The people that argue you don't have to or you have to, clearly don't actually understand the science.

There are so many variables that determine what it is you need to do.

It all purely comes down to YOUR WATER SOURCE PERAMETERS.

If your water source KH is 4 or below, then you Definetely need KH buffering salts.

If your water source is KH 5-6,,, then every time it drops one increment your water change will generally replenish the KH level just in time,,,,, buuut, further down the track when you've added more fish and fish grow, the higher bio-load will deplete the KH faster than water changes can replace thus needing salts/buffers to keep KH at correct level.

Your GH is Definetely to low as it should at least be 9-12 GH.

So some people are doing the right thing without understanding,,, and because of this, years down the track sometimes things come undone from above reasons and leaves them scratching their heads.

So people that don't understand the science and argue to add buffer salts or not to would be something close to this.

The people who say you don't,,,, would already have a higher KH reading in their water supply and enough to replenish through water changes.

The people who say you do,,,, would have a low KH reading in their water supply so additives are needed to correct.

See ?, it's all to do with what's coming out of your tap, and sometimes if your tap water is almost there but not quite for KH, then it's that versus your bio-load size.

Younger fish seem to be more hardy than adult fish in incorrect KH and GH levels believe it or not.

Another thing that a lot of people don't think of is the osmosis function of fishes cells with the outside environment.

The insides of fishes cells are always wanting to balance out salts and minerals to equalize concentration with the outside environment in the water.

So if your water is lacking or deprived of these salts, then the needed salts and minerals needed in the fishes cells leach out to the outside environment to equal out concentrations through the semi-permeable membrane of the cells.

And vise versa, to much salts minerals in the water will result in to much entering the fishes cells.

So understanding that higher KH (carbonates) fuel higher number of beneficial bacteria to increase bio filter power and in water column.

And how this increased beneficial bacteria will actually out compete bad bacterias (gram negative bacteria).

And understanding all of what I've discussed above.

To understand how it all comes together and correlate is actually the holy grail of supreme fish keeping.

All that I've said above is explained as simple as possible without complex reasons added.

And I've rambled all this not to show off at all,,, it's there for people to try and grab grip and google hard in the right direction.

It's not just about filling a tank with water and wacking a filter on and slapping in the fish with a basic understanding of the nitrogen cycle.

Most shops just wanna sell ya stuff,,, look for the seldom few shops that do give correct advice in relation to what you do and buy.

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Hi Buccal

Thanks, I was just commenting on some a few people idea. I agree with your that KH and GH are very important. Particually with my current location. My old home was on rain water only and we never had any issues with PH swing.

So my tap water is KH 0 (or very close) and GH would seem to be about 2 or maybe 3 very hard to tell with this test kit.

It would seem I'll need to add a far amount of Calcium carbonate (and maybe Magnesium sulphate and Calcium sulphate) to the tank over time and going to need to think about how I can do a 200L water change with out dropping it down majorly each time.

I had brought up from the shed a 200L Dill drum which I was going to add an air stone too and use this to mix up a batch of water week by week, but this was going to be a lot of work and cost to use.

Well I suppose it a case of see how I go.

Cheers

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I've been doing some digging to find some hard numbers and methods of increasing the GH and found this conversation, its more about plants but the rules look the same.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/21205-wet-thumb-forum-calcium-dosing-increase.html

Been looking for where I could buy Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) and it seems like the beer brewer suppliers have it at a fair price.

I have a small 22L tropical tank which I used Buccal idea of using a bucket to create water which matched the tanks current levels plus a little.

Again thanks for all the help

Mike

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