Colour fed imports, gender, virility

[Cichlid_Boy]

So I recently set up a display tank, with a variety of species, intentionally males. I put in some generic red/blue/yellow peacocks without much concern for which Aulonocara species they may be (and realising they were probably hybrids).

A nicely coloured red peacock which I figured was probably something like a jacobfriebergi was pretty dominant. I was not naive enough to think it wasn't colour fed, and is heard that they may be sterile in that case but as I said, display tank only.

It's been a couple of months and the fish has since lost a little colour but as you can see in the pic, it's still coloured and looks like a male... Except that it now has a mouthful! And a skinnier belly, and (I think) a just slightly visible tube.

What are your thoughts? I guess it's possible it has a mouthful of gravel or something, but I've never encountered male Aulonocara holding eggs. And I would have assumed if it was a colour fed female, that it would be sterile.

[malawi sand diver]

Hi

Yes it looks like a holding female. I bought a Taiwan Reef once that was colour fed with White Crane. It ended up being female (lost the colour after a couple of weeks) and had several mouthfuls afterwards, so its not necessarily true that the colour feeding makes the females sterile.

Regards, Rob

[Buccal]

White crane Definetely, Definetely, Definetely does not make fish sterile unless exclusively fed whitecrane for years.

Fish don't breed while it's in their system, but a weeks later they come of it, they start breeding again

This debate always pops up with disagreement.

I color feed my designer peacocks I breed for sales,,,, and I also heavily color feed them to see which ones become more intense purely to select for breeders.

All my breeding designer peacocks breeding right now have all been on white crane in their juvenile stage of life.

[Cichlid_Boy]

Ok well I wasnt naming white crane specifically. And yes even if the fish was fed colour enhancer which made it appear to be male, it stopped a couple of months ago when I bought the fish. I'm just surprised that a fully coloured 'male' looking Aulonocara would have a mouthful.

[Buccal]

Well, be sure it's a male.

If its a female, pair it of with a male and you'll produce awesome colored fish.

It's not common but very occasional that female peacocks can resemble a male appearance.

In the past I've had female dragon bloods looking like moderate males. (and great fry).

Also had fairly blue looking electric blue females.

On another note, I've had large size Frontosa males pic up and hold eggs.

Again not common, but very occasional a male can hold,,,,, but will not hold full term and usually will not be seen to do it again.

[intangcity]

im not looking for a debate.my thoughts on colour feeding are like this

you are lying to consumers and you may as well xbreed as well.

when i see colour feeding going on in a shop the only thing i buy in that shop is a heater or other equipment or frozen food then i walk out.never going to that shop again unless i really need something and its almost closing time.

if i went to a private/back yard breeder and saw colour fed fish id smile ask a few questions and leave without a purchase.

And colour feeding to see which ones become more intense in colour? why not put males in seperate tanks if possible find out naturally..the way i see it ull get a better look at what is most colourful.if u colour feed to pick a breeder arnt you just falsely choosing.basically your lying to yourself as well cos you keep feeding the colour saying yep hes my best male wow look at him but really he could be the crappiest naturally coloured male in there..

but thats my opinion and thoughts

[Buccal]

I don't really have any opinions or thoughts,,,, basically just facts from repetitive trial on massive scales.

Only hybrid or varient peacocks being dragon bloods and marble pccks are only ones I personally feed whitecrane to as 10% of the diet.

I find there tends to be a bit of a purist band wagon for color fed fish.

White crane Definetely has its place,,, and it's there as choice.

Those on the band wagon tend to refuse to use it and if tried the food its usually only once,,, really has limited knowledge of the food being had no experience with it,,,,, and just passing on the rumors of misconception.

A fish that has a future for better coloration will be the first to color up,,,, the last to color up are females and lesser males.

Fish on white crane do not all become as intense as each other,,, some become standouts,,, and this makes white crane AN EXCELLENT TOOL,, as a preview into the future.

Better probability of quality breeders happens with greater numbers,,, as example if I select dragon bloods for breeding,,, I will use about 200 offspring at 5-6cm.

Now, growing all them out to find the best is a logistical nightmare,,,,, most people would just grab 15 and go from there.

But with me, i may have 200 + bound for the market which have 10% white crane in diet,,,,,, the first 30 to color up will be exhumed for future breeders,,,, I also will take roughly 5 fish that took a while if not yet colored,, these may be female and likely 2-4 in the 30 will be female.

Some dragon bloods have a pinky red color and some have a deep orange color.

Whitecrane does not make the fish the same as some think,, red ones get redder and orange ones get more orange.

Scenario two,,, in the house is a 2500 liter Malawi display all randomly one or two of each specie,, and technically is triple times the reasonable stocking maximum,,, filters to the max and daily plumbed in water changes account for that.

This tank is more of a collectors tank rather than a slice of nature in a cube.

Whilst feeding on 10% white crane,,, every fish is colored as opposed to less than a third in full color without the color feed.

Not every fish can be dominant at once, so white crane helps color evenly throughout,,, and trust me, my tank is breathtaking.

Also since use of whitecrane I haven't had hundreds of pesky hybrids littering my display tank.

If I see great fish, rare fish or fish I've been searching for,,, if they were color fed,,, it would not make any difference to me what so ever because I know enough to know it means absolutely nothing.

It's just jibber jabber politics for the purist.

I to am not interested in debating whitecrane use,,, but I've noted the pro's.

The con's are just temporary unless one feeds whitecrane exclusively,,, then long term internal damage may over like liver failure and so on.

But used as a tool for color and previewing and not used as staple,,, then your fish will lead full healthy lives.

They just don't breed while they are being fed white crane.

But resume breeding after off the white crane.

[Link2Hell]

colour feeding has a place and is helpful in IDing Aulonacara females and juveniles

it is also good for a display tank where they only want colour and not breeding

so long as LFS disclose they use it I see no problem other than you could actually be

sold a male or a juiced female but that is your choice so long as you are informed

this is where it comes down to ethics

good reply Buccal

[intangcity]

thats the problem chris lfs dont and wont disclose it when asked they dont tell you the truth.ive asked the question at a lfs in st marys you could see their adams apple gulp when asked then they tell you they use the red pellets in the chinese container on the shelf.

[Cichlid_Boy]

so long as LFS disclose they use it I see no problem other than you could actually be

sold a male or a juiced female

Well, in the past 2-3 months I feel I've visited a large proportion of the aquariums in Sydney (that stock Africans), and it seems to me that most of these are either getting colour-fed fish from wholesalers/breeders, or doing it themselves. I asked a couple why they only seem to have male fish in their store, and was told by one establishment that it's because all the females sell quickly to breeders and they are left with all males.

Yeah... right. All fully-coloured juvenile males..? Not a single sub-dominant male in any tank...?

Another told me that they only receive colour fed MALE fish from the 'importer' (and this was the fish with the mouthful above).

So Chris you're right, the ethical issue is them not disclosing it, but the practical issue is finding fish that aren't colour fed! Obviously the answer here is to buy from breeders who aren't using this "helpful tool".

PS: I stripped the fish in question, yes it had a gobful of eggs and upon venting was clearly female despite the vivid colouration.

[Buccal]

Fish color fed in the shop isn't really working under the "useful tool" class.

Us experienced people know there color fed,,, as mentioned due to no single dominant males, juvie displaying adult dress and only appearing to be no females.

So, being experienced and aware of this,,,, at juvie stage it's going to be hard to select male and female anyway.

Whether color fed or not,,, when buying fish with intention to breed, we buy a handful of fish and observe as things take there course.

I think for the most part,,, people just get annoyed thinking the shops think their stupid trying to fool them, when a lot of the time the person being served knows more about fish than the server.

After all among the buyers of cichlids, people like us on these forums taking this hobby very seriously are quite the minority.

The majority of buyers are likely not to care to much as to wether color fed or not,,, with a lot wanting to source the color feed themselves.

Those big 3mm red whitecrane pellets do saturate the fish with PSB and color promoters.

A more sensible way is to use the ADP white crrane which is tiny micro squiggles where a true 10% can be administered in the diet.

A true 10% should still reveal male and female differences.

Heavier doses over long term will actually start to reshape anal fin into a point looking male, believe it or not.

Another thing I've never seen anyone mention that I've noticed,,, is that white crane promotes fin growth and fin extensions.

Damaged fins on fish will heal quicker with white crane in diet.

White crane does not color fish in the way a lot of people think.

Most people think of a dying effect,,, but only carotenes, and astaxanthin type carotenes do this.

Not going to go into the science or I'll bore you if not already lol, but believe it or not, white crane actually stimulates and triggers the fishes natural systems to go into over drive and produce its own excessive fluorescence colors.

This is why other food enhancers like for flower horns,, tetras,, Americans,,, will only promote red or another will only promote yellow,,,,,,,,, because are acting like a dye impregnating color into the flesh and under scales.

White crane also has carotene and will work in same way on Americans as any other enhancer of the shelf,,,, but it won't work on Americans like malawis,,, because Americans don't have fluoresce production ability to be triggered.

Understanding it before you knock it is a must,,,, but I know on this thread this is not happening.

It's the anger of being deceived and shop's excessive negligent use.

But make choices knowing what you know,,, if you want that species,, grab a handful and a few weeks later you'll be where you want to be,,, as after all they are usually juvies,,, and either other makes no difference.

Us serious people are only a fraction of this picture.

[intangcity]

uve stated buccal a few points i didint know of which is gd.others prob didnt know of these either you have given me a different perspective on white crane which others ive spoken to could not of thankyou.you may have just changed my opinion and furthered my knowledge on colour feeding.

[Buccal]

Thanks mate,,, As I to don't like seeing every specie of fish in a shop juiced up to the max either.