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</DIV><H1>white spot</H1><DIV | </a></DIV><DIV id=Qtextbox><P><STRONG>Author: cobalt craig</STRONG><BR><BR>hi all

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a couple of questions on white spot

i have a system with 22 tanks "plumbed together"

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about 5 in the system have white spot

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1)how do you get white spot (bad water)

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2) do i treat all the tanks "22" or just the "5" affected

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3) i have b/nose in all tanks will they be ok

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4) i have fry in "11" tanks will they be ok

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regards

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craig

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi Craig,

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Sorry to read about your whitespot outbreak.

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White spot (Ick) is a disease caused by a protozoan parasite, which occurs just about everywhere. The disease seems to break out, if you have a (or several) fish that are stressed, either by moving/introducing fish and/or cold water.

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The parasite has a lifecycle with two stages, the motile phase (which can be treated) and the encapsulated phase (which is untreatable). At about 27?C (the optimum temperature, at which the lifecycle is shortest) the lifecycle lasts about 10 days. Many people will tell you to increase the temperature to 29?C, because the protozoan responsible doesn't like hot temperatures, but ... don't!!! The higher the temperature, the less gases are dissolved in the water, and Ick also effects their gills. From passed experience I can tell you that this method will probably kill more fish than it will safe. My poor fish suffocated.

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You will need to treat all the water shared by tanks, regardless of their inhabitants showing any symptoms. Use the standard Ick treatment (the one that contains malactite green and fromaldehyde), because the strains in Sydney are apparently resistant to all other remedies. I think you are supposed to repeat treatment after 3 days, so treat for 12 instead of 9 - remember you need to cover the entire lifecycle.

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Your bristlenose and your fry should be fine, unless they are too weakened to survive the course of the disease.

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If you have any clown loaches, it is bad news there, because Ick-remedy will kill fish without scales (i.e. loaches).

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Once you have treated the water you should be completely clear of the parasite causing Ick. However, if you introduce new fish/plants, or any water (except for drinking water, which should be free of pathogen - one hopes

), you may re-introduce the parasite from a different system. But that does not necessarily mean that you will have another outbreak for some time.

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Sorry, a rather lengthy answer, but I hope this helps.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: danceswithdingoes</STRONG><BR><BR>Oh Dear, sounds like a problem I'd better come up and quarantine all of your fish

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I know Craig and others would know most of this but many newer hobbyists seem to have similar problems so I'll aim it at them Craig and you take out what (if any) info you need.

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Seriously though any of your copper based medications are going to play havoc with your filtration and formalin or similar drugs are going to knock your bns for six.

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As your system is centralised the ich spore has travelled throughout your system by now so a blanket treatment is called for, my advice (and it is only my advice) is:

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To add an extra heater to the sump and crank both to 30 degrees (this will speed up the life cycle of the cyst [advice for newbs] as the free swimming form is the most vulnerable to treatment)

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As a result of your extra heating you need to increase aeration to all of your tanks (time to crank up the spare air compressor)

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Because you are dealing with mainly African Rift Lake cichlids

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and have chemical sensitive catfish I would recommend a salt solution to begin with:

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Measure and note down the specific gravity of your water (you will need to borrow a hydrometer) Add aquarium salt, or uniodised sea/rock salt to achieve a specific gravity of around 1.005-1.006 both African cichlids and bsn can tolerate an increase in salt for a short time but the freshwater ich parasite cannot tolerate moderate salinity at all and this should kill it.

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After 4-7 days do a series of 30% water changes until the ph/kh/specific gravity return to normal, keep the high temps for another 3-4 days then gradually reduce to normal over a 2 day period.

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If the salt fails to fix the problem then water change and try tri-sulphur at half strength.

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Best of Luck Craig. btw the ich spore usually comes with new arrivals but tends to hit stressed fish first.

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</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: c2105208</STRONG><BR><BR>G'day,

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IMO and IME don't bother with salt or anything else. I have had the unfortunate experience in having to treat white spot several times, each attempted with different medications etc - and ended up settling on one proper cure each time. Now I just skip all of those others and go straight to 37% formaledhyde solution. It *always* works for me, and I have used it on even sensitive discus with no problems.

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I have heard that it can cause problems for cory's, cats and loaches, but I did not find this personally.

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For more info check out my post in

this

thread.

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Whitespot is caused by an external waterborne parasite which has various stages in the lifecycle - egg, larvae, free swimming parasite etc. Generally the parasite is only vulnerable in the larval stage, which means that several treatments may be necessary to erradicate it. Additionally, since it is free-swimming, chances are it exists in all 22 of your tanks since they are plumbed together. The only reason that other fish may not have come down with symptoms is because their immune system has allowed them to resist the parasite's attachment. Ich parasites which are present in a system generally attack first the weakest fish - in one of my cases it attacked the 'runt' discus (one which for some reason wouldn't grow for a long while) of a group of otherwise healthy discus..

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As such I would recommend the whole bank of 22 be treated if you wish to totally erradicate it. You could isolate the worst ones and treat individually if you wished and 'hope' the parasites in the water column die off (due to lack of suitably weak host organism, i.e. weaker fish). This would be probably the more conservative approach, but relies on a lot of luck. Any q's feel free to e-mail me or post again...

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Cheers,

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Adam

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</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: danceswithdingoes</STRONG><BR><BR>Put in the formaldehyde and watch the bns drop....one....two....three....four.......I sold 80 youngsters to an lfs they put half in a 4fter with some cichlids that got white spot, treated with a malachite green/ formaldehyde solution and within 2 hrs every bsn was dead, no cichlids though......your fish your choice but 3 out of four marine guys give freshwater baths for marine ich...

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Dances With Dingoes

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</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Dances with Dingoes,

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Whitespot is also a problem in marine fish, so salt is going to do nothing at all. And the formaldehyde in the solution is relatively weak.

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In my case, I went through the entire thing. Salt, Methylene Blue, and eventually someone told me, that in Sydney (and most of the east coast of Australia) the parasite is resistent to anything else, in the meantime my bristlenoses and loaches and furcifers and tropheus started to drop like flies. Thanks to "Ick remedy" I managed to save a few fish - bristlenoses amongst them. To be honest I had never heard of problems with bristlenoses in exposure to Ick-remedy, but your loaches are going to die, if exposed.

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And increasing the temperature past 27?C is only going to stress your fish and force the protozoan into encapsulation, where it will remain until conditions are favourable again. No matter how much aeration you pump into the water, at 29?C the amount of dissolved oxygen is going to be low enough to stress the fish.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: cobalt craig</STRONG><BR><BR>thanks to all for the replys

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i am on the case now

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: ducksta</STRONG><BR><BR>"Whitespot is also a problem in marine fish, so salt is going to do nothing at all. And the formaldehyde in the solution is relatively weak."

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The whitespot diseases in FW and marine are actually caused by different pathogens. Both are intollerant of the reverse condition. ie. Marine whitespot is intolerant of fresh water, and vice versa.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: danceswithdingoes</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks Ducksta saved me the typing, also you need to heat the tank to increase the life cycle of the spore as the meds really only zap them when free swimming not cysts, at 27 as you suggest the life cycle will be 5-7 days (that means 5-7 days of meds before it really gets effective) at 30 that same cycle takes only 3-4 days (less time the fish exposed to meds) but you do need to increase saturated oxygen (aeration) at that temp.

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Finally let it be said that my suggestion is in no way the bible of 'white spot treatment' however knowing Craig and knowing what he has at stake I thought long and hard about what he could do before I touched the keyboard, if what works for you, works for you then that is fine, but at least use the least intrusive methods first

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Dances With Dingoes

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</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: citypainter</STRONG><BR><BR>The only thing that I can add is that when I treated white spot peviously I took out any charcoal in the system and lowered the water level so that I did not have to treat so much water.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Link 2 Hell</STRONG><BR><BR>Valid points by Citypainter

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Personally I have used and will recommend Aquasonic Ichonex

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27*C is a viable temp for Rift Lake fish

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give the tanks 2 courses (treatments) as you may not get all the pathogens in one treatment ..... but follow the instructions

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salt is not accepted well by some fish and can be just as irritating as the Ich pathogen especially in Catfish

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There have been some more viralent forms appear over the past few yrs that now show on Rift lake cichlids where they didn't in the past

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The Ich pathopgen is present in the water but will only affect fish that have a drop in health from water conditions, stress, chilling and new arrivals (immune system deficient compared to current inhabitants)

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The disease is highly contagious and is spread by anything immersed in the infected tanks like hands, nets, etc

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Well Craig you have found one of the pitfalls of a linked reef filter system ...... it is vertually impossible to isolate a tank that becomes infected before it spreads through the complete system

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L2H

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Ducksta and Dances with Dingoes,

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I stand corrected in relation to whitespot. Sorry!

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: ducksta</STRONG><BR><BR>Dont be sorry, we're all learning

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I havent had any ich outbreaks in a couple of years. Hence I am unfamiliar with these super-ich strains which dont react well to the previous listed treatments.

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I would like to add though, using Wardleys ichaway, and some other ich meds I have always had bad reactions with catfish of different sorts. However, a light salt concentration in the tank has never affected the catfish I have kept. However I dont claim to have kept alot of catfish, and I definately havent kept any syno's or anything rare and expensive

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</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Yeah our last outbreak was a really horrible one. My then 2.5 year old (peculiar it is always the same one

: -->

:">

) decided our 6 ft tank needed a 75% waterchange in the middle of winter

.

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I tried all the "nice" ways of "salting" the parasite, and "burning" it, then went to methylene blue (because I don't like formaldehyde or formalin), but eventually had to give in, if only I had gotten out the nasty stuff straight away, I might still have that colony of Magara foae.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: ducksta</STRONG><BR><BR>Damn, I've never heard of them, so I must only assume they are rare and expensive

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: YeW2001</STRONG><BR><BR>Cobalt -

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You should use UV sterilisers on any linked system.

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This is essential to stop the spread of WS tank to tank.

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HTH -

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</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: c2105208</STRONG><BR><BR>Regarding watching BN's drop with formaledhyde (formalin); I treated the discus in the same tank as 5 BN's - a 4" male, and several smaller ones. As well as 5 Cory schwarzii, and 4 clown loaches. None of them even blinked an eye at the stuff, all as happy as ever during the treatment. Discus cleared up within a week. Had to redose a week later due to a relapse in the lifecycle but got it on the head that time and then it all went away...

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And I agree - UV sterilizers are the go

I wouldn't have a rack without one. I love my RL model - top quality stuff.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Ducksta,

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You probably would have heard of the "Bluegreen Furcifer" from Burundi. The black furcifers have all been split out of Cyathofarynx furcifer and into C. foae. And the bluegreen foae from Burundi comes from a place called Magara.

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But yes, they were expensive at the time (and I guess would still be pretty pricey).

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: aquaticmalamute</STRONG><BR><BR>Cobalt Craig, sorry to jump in on your thread mate but.....

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Yesterday i noticed one of my mums marine clowns has whitespot, i was just wondering how exactly do you give the fish a 'freshwater bath' ? and how reliable are they on curing w/s? any other methods worth a try?

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Thanks

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Nikki

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: ducksta</STRONG><BR><BR>You basically get a bucket of dechlorinated, same pH and temp fresh water and drop it in. Unfortunately I cant remember how long for, but its not a very long time. The problem with bathing a single fish (IMO) is that the pahtogen and disease will still be cruising your tank in large numbers (an ich outbreak is like a spike, the buggers reproduce very quickly while there are infected fish about I believe) However treating marine in a whole tank ich can be pretty tricky I hear, depending on what else is in your tank invert-wise.

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