My new 6ft cichlid tank (scape inspired by all the feedback)

[meagan1]

Here you go!

I still need a good light for it and one more glass cover as I just lost a fish.

Stocking list below

6 x cobalt blues

2 x phenocolus Tanzania

2 x ob peacocks (inherited unfortunately)

2 x unknown haps please identify all I know is that the male is an asshole!

I bristlenose catfish.

Any suggestions on fish I should get?

[Buccal]

6 x Syno multipunctatus

1 x gold spot pleco large to keep that tank clean.

Best of red empress, and Taiwan reef and the likes of.

Little clump of good electric yellows.

[Fisheggs]

Are synodontis difficult to keep buccal? I was doing a quick search to find out more about them, and it's noted that they are sensitive to nitrate. Will they do ok with exposed nitrate levels of 40ppm?

[Buccal]

Definetely fine in 40ppm mate,, mine breed like stupid in 30-40ppm.

40 ppm is low.

The cats are hardy and very easy to keep,,,,, like with anything else, good cycled tank and no ammonia spikes,, and there will be no probs.

[Chuckmeister]

40 ppm is too high for nitrates imo. There is no reason to have nitrate levels that high for prolonged periods other than you are too busy to change the water. If thats the case then maybe cut feeding down.

I have a dozen multies in my 8 footer, nitrates are around 20ppm and for me thats around water change time. They are very easy to keep but you still need to maintain water for the comfort of the fish.

edit - eek..opposite opinions lol

For me 40ppm isn't exceedingly high though its at a level that, for myself, I start to feel uncomfortable with.

[Buccal]

If your talking display tanks then yes,,, I water change mine every night at 30% and nitrates can hardly be read.

40ppm being ok is NOT a opinion it's a cold hard fact.

Breeders that raise juveniles in low nitrate environment are producing sensitive and in my opinion, weak fish.

These fish going into shops and most other fish keepers aquariums that have considerable levels of nitrate become stressed as they are not use/adapted to it.

I would even go as far to say 60ppm is completely fine.

Sensitive tangs I wouldn't suggest past 40ppm.

I've bred/breed Americans, mostly Malawi, tangs, Madagascan, catfish and most importantly stingrays in this environment.

Disease in this environment is extremely low especially considering outstanding high stock levels.

I can raise without a glitch all the problem fry species.

I've seen people keep frontosa without ever water changing for almost 1.5 years and when I tested nitrates the first drop sent the vial deep red lol.

Now don't jump don't my throat,,,, just because I mentioned the fronts in these conditions,,, doesn't mean I support it.

These fronts were sold to a secondary owner with low nitrates, and the fronts all dropped dead.

They simply had adapted to high nitrates and the sudden change to low nitrates was far to drastic.

In aquaculture commerial environments in closed systems,,, with intense density stocking levels,,, 40ppm is well excepted.

It's the ornamental fish keeping ways we all get very strict with sanitrys and over the top to perfect.

There's a difference between perfection and tolerance.

Keeping a lightly stocked balanced aquarium is not for everyone.

I personally like them fully crammed with heaps of hustle and bustle,,,,, which really tests the fish keeping skills.

[Chuckmeister]

I understand that in a commercial environment pushing acceptable maintainable limits is part of cost savings and production costs etc as well as time limits in the day to do things...

For a private breeder, or even a display tank keeper I dont think promoting high nitrates (in extreme levels) is something people need to test (and accept)

I've had fish in high nitrates and largely most have survived (not always) but I dont see the need to test my fish to high levels. For me 40 ppm is over water change time even though I'm sure they can get alot higher, but I dont want to test the extreme..

I guess the difference is that I come from a hobbyists angle and the fish are what I like about the hobby (in terms of babying, enjoying the hobby etc). Promoting heavily stocked tanks for a largely inexperienced audience is gonna end up in pain for someone.

For me 20ppm is water change, 40 ppm is getting a little lazy and anything above is excessive but like I say its only a personal opinion and a professional set up could likely push limits even higher. The 2 of us simply approach things from a slightly different angle and interest. Even when I was breeding every single tank got 40 percent every week (even though I know thats difficult for larger water quantities) and I never saw any issues in any of my stock from being bred and raised in low nitrates. I'm more of a believer of fish being bred in local water conditions (parameters, lower hardness, ph)) being stronger than fish being bred in high nitrates. I also would never put my tangs through 40ppm nitrates. I've seen (expensive) tropheus meltdowns and its not nice. Most tanganyikans are sensitive to water conditions and for my hard earned money it better to keep their water clean.

I've also had some bad luck over the years with high nitrates, pleco and sailfin.

edit - sorry for the off topic Meagan...you could get more Pheno's..they are an awesome fish...take a long time to look epic but at the end of the day you have the fish that everyone wants and not many have [edit - Ive always loved them anyway]. Thats when you show them off Buccal is right too... raising multi's is awesome and when you see your first kitten is epic Thing with Multi's is you want to have them with fast breeding haps with large mouthfuls (and mouths) to be really be beneficial. I wouldn't do it with pheno's myself. I used to breed mine with Dimidiochromis Compressiceps and got tons of kittens but dimi's have a spawn of 100 fry for a good spawn. Lots of food for young multi...

[Buccal]

Its not really that far off topic,, this sort of heathy discussion is good for people finding out new things on the hobby entry levels.

My whole fish keeping life, post breeding days up to now, ive just always considered 40ppm the same way as you considered 20ppm Chuck.

Also as a side note to nitrate testing, there's a great discrepency in how people read the color of the nitrate test solution.

What one person may read as 20ppm, another may read it as 30 or even 40ppm.

What's more, is that if the vial is left sitting after adding test solution for a few minutes before reading as per instruction, may show up differently compared to letting it sit for five minutes or more which would show as a higher reading.

In my personal belief,,,, when a beginner is trying to grasp knowledge in fish keeping skills,, it's usually quite daunting and even stressful with a lost feeling,,,,,, and being or portraying things as everything to be seriously detrimental can make things a little scary and more worrysome.

So I personally try to give a lay back (within reason) approach to things so they can still learn a little trial and error along the way and realise also at the same time, what works for some may work differently for others.

But as for Meagan, it appears that she is just purely out for display with a look of diversity to keep it interesting.

It's not a must to choose particular hosts for the synos multis to live with.

A similar looking fish but much more a dwarf variety is the syno petricola which is tangyanyikan, and being this they are slightly more sensitive,,,, so don't get confused between the two.

And Chuck, I think it's great how we both can express differences in opinion and stay civilized,,,, and even talk about the differences in our beliefs.

A few individuals on other forums tend to go into opposed warfare mode.

Where as I like to read your stuff getting a different spin on things and pick up extra bits here and there....

[Fisheggs]

Just to make it clear that, I definitely don't leave the water in unfavourable conditions for an extended period, ie to have nitrate levels at 40ppm.

Apologies if I came off as irresponsible.

I'm definitely appreciative of the opinions and advice given on this forum, especially from experienced hobbyist like yourselves.

I've learnt a lot from here, and all credits to you guys for taking the time to express your opinions.

Hoping to learn a lot more from you all.

And, sorry OP!!!! This went off tangent.

[Buccal]

It only takes extra water changes,,, it's no biggy.

[Chuckmeister]

lol yeah I cant stand trying to determine the correct colour range in test kits. It is definitely a subjective thing. Wish someone would design a digital pen that covers all water readings for accuracy.

Fisheggs, I'm probably being a little an@l in nitrates. 40ppm is not really in any crazy danger zone for some/most fish (and certainly not an extreme). For me its a limit that I dont like going above and will bring on either a large water change or a couple of smaller ones over a couple days. I have the time to commit to my tanks so I like my (conservative) limits. Its not for everyone that are time/workload limited.

My malawi for example handle general water conditions alot better than I like to push my tangs and my tangs usually get the cleaner water more often than not.

My experience with high nitrates is those weird mystery deaths you get in your tank. You lose a fish one week and the next week you find another..alot of people (including myself) rarely check nitrate levels (though I did check last night lol). Ammonia more often than not is the indicator for...where is that test kit. Nitrates are generally harmless to fish unless in high dosage...you just need to find out your comfort level to the fish stock you have and researching what you like in your tank is a great start.

[benno]

With 80% weekly water changes on my tank I don't even bother checking nitrates on my tank anymore as they never get over 20.

[Fins]

Hey Benno, 80% water changes? Just to clarify, do you prepare your new water to match your tank water?

[benno]

Yea mate got a food grade 200 litre drum, fill it up the night before a water change with a double dose of prime and use it the next afternoon if it's winter I'll pop the heater on so it's not freezing when I pump it into the tank. Quick check with the digital ph metre which is always the same and in she goes. When I get my 6 or 8x2x2 in the new year will just buy an ibc and do the same. Without this regime I do not think my green terror would have grown 9cm in almost 10 months.

[benno]

Also should mention he's got a horde of 200 1-2cm fry in with him also which are getting powerfed. Have always done the large weekly water changes though and he's turned out a stunner.

[Buccal]

Be very wary of such large water changes,

A few Americans such as green terror and so on are quite hardy and don't mind the change.

The change can also shock the beneficial bacteria (bb) in filters and cause a percentage to die of.

Extra prime would detox the ammonia if the bb was effected from a hefty water change.

But in a well populated tank with a fair wack off pressure on the filters and bb, it could be that mini cycles could be triggered with excessive ammonia spikes.

I even worry with 50% changes but 50% is generally fine and many people do it without a hitch.

40% water changes in a decently stocked tank weekly, should see nitrates kept in check.

[Ged]

Benno it is clear that your water change regime is working for you. i have done similar percentage changes but carred out two changes over the course of the week.

[Stoney2]

I agree Buccal. I had excessive nitrates for a long time, by that I mean I would do a water change and the next day it would read in the red on the API test kit. I once did an 80% water change and it triggered a mini cycle. I now do 50% weekly water changes and my readings are always orange.

If you notice i only talk about colours with the API test kits, I find it very difficult to get a true reading as i personally can't distinguish between all the grades of each colour. Same as the ammonia test, is it 0 or 0.25? I can't tell but as long as it is not green I'm cool with it.

I should mention i keep Frontosa and I find them quite hardy and tolerant (or should I say quite forgiving lol).

[PlecoSam]

That does not really make sense, orange is the new black, you can't sit on the fence just make a call! not making one is such a girly thing to do! lol, if you are wrong all good, 20ppm, 30ppm it doesn't matter so much to a point.

[Buccal]

Bet way to distinguish colors,,, is to go by the instructions for waiting time after applying indicator solution to vial.

Put the vial on a clean sheet of white paper,,, eg, a4 fax/printing paper and center it,,, then look diagonally down across the vial.

Have a over head fluro light.

If you have a fluro light in the kitchen then that's perfect.

[Fins]

Well kids, I guess the moral of the story is, if you want to do large water changes 40% - 80%, you need to prepare your water before it goes into the tank. Temp, pH, Hardness and dechlor. Your new water parameters need to match your tank water.

[benno]

Well looking at the size of my gt since I got him my changes are probably more like 60-70% these days but have always pretty much 'fin level' as they say on some of the American sites. He's always been by himself apart from when I had the female in with him and now that he's looking after month old fry, even they love the large water changes surprisingly. 90% of the keepers on an overseas new world cichlid forum do exact same, reading all of those topics is what made me jump on the wagon lol.

[benno]

I should note that I've never tried this with a heavily stocked tank of Africans.

Buccal- how do you suggest such large changes will disturb bb? Not bein a smart @$$ mate. Just always interested to hear you opinion, have learnt a lot from your posts.

[Buccal]

Bb just like fish are effected by drastic water perameter changes.

To me,,, doing a water change over 60% is like hosing down your biological filter media with a hose,,, killing the bb.

If you were to mess around with the new water and match it identically chemistry wise to the aquarium water,,, well I can't see to much of a issue,,,, but why do all that messing around when You can water change in greater increments (less amounts but more often).

Bb also exist in the water column, a small tiny amounts waisted.

But known tough hardy fish, sometimes I see owners claiming they do particular things outside the square,,, but in many cases only getting away with it because of hardy fish or not common circumstances eg, one or two fish in big tanks,

One may think this drastic water change amounts makes their fish grow faster,,, this is only a fact when a closed system is moderate to heavily stocked when toxicity raises fast and water changes counter act it.

What really makes fish grow fastest is obviously low nitrates, low stocking and a very huge thing that most don't think of, a single species tank,,,,, once species are mixed together they always retard each others growth.

I really do see a lot of hollow assumptions in this hobby.

And me to I'm not trying to be a a r s e h o l e.

I believe I'm a realist and call it how I see it,,,,, but it doesn't make me infallible that's for sure.

Some people do get annoyed at me and think I'm a know it all,,,, but once I feel that I'm targeted I dissapear and stay away from posting for long extended periods.

I havnt felt threatened here at all,,, I'm just going of on a tangent like I'm known for lol.

[Chuckmeister]

I agree with most everything you've said Buccal. Personally myself I've noticed that prolonged massive water changes actually induce stress on fish. Its a personal observation (and opinion) but I limit my changes to 50% max. 30 % for regular changes, 50% for when I've been slack. If it needs more I leave it a few days for a smaller change. Certainly cant back it up with any numbers.

The one thing I disagree about is single species in a tank. To me poo is poo unless you feed one fish chilli and the other licorice though both probably produce the same outcome minus pain If you choose fish from different (water) zones then the 2 shouldn't overly interact with each other. I've never had an issue with 2 species tanks as long as they have been chosen well.