NSWSC Car Boot Sale

[CThompson]

The more I think of it, the better the idea seems. I can't be the first to think of it, but I have no idea if it has been suggested in the past, perhaps it has, and there were good/legitimate reasons for the idea not to go ahead.

During the "big" auction on the weekend (while my backside was conforming to the moulding of the plastic seat), my mind started toying with the idea of a car boot sale. I can see a lot of advantages for not only the sellers and buyers, but also on the organising committee who currently (and in the past) have done all the huge amount of work that is required for a regular auction.

I understand that a location needs to be found, and that the public liability insurance side of things needs to be considered for a car boot sale. I don't know if access is available, or even if permission would be granted, but the oval next door to where the NSWSC meeting and big auctions are held would be a good place to hold this, and may (?) also be covered by the current public liability insurance.

I don't think an extra function should be added to the already two big auction days, but I would suggest that one of the two big auction days be replaced with a car boot sale. It is already a known how much money is usually made on a big auction day by the NSWSC. Subtract the amount the sales table and canteen bring in to the society, try and work out the interest in this idea (ie. how many cars will come), and work out a price per entry per car to make sure the NSWSC still take the same amount as a big auction usually bring in.

I see this idea to be a positive to sellers, buyers, and people on the NSWSC who currently organise the big auction days.

If the NSWSC don't want to take up the idea, perhaps the SCP could look into it to help raise monies to pay for the page?

Advantages

No work putting in auction lots into computer.

No need to keep track of fish sales during the auction.

No great need for a computer on sale day all.

Sellers can come (and go) at their leisure, and not be pinned by an auction entrance dead-line (of course if they come too late they may not sell their fish - so arrival time would be self rectifying)

No limit on numbers of boxes sellers bring provided it fits in one ordinary vehicle (that is, not a 5-tonne truck)

It will be the sellers discussion as to how many, or few boxes of fish they bring, and will know if the gate entrance fee is worthwhile (dependant on numbers and cost of fish).

Selling will be restricted by daylight hours (I guess light could be put up), which means there will be no need to be finishing at midnight as with the big auction

No huge accounting need by committee members tallying up sales and paying sellers at the end of the night (good for committee and sellers) .

Plenty of time to "socialise" with each other, and auctioneers will not have to call for "bit of shush please"

Adventurous people may even set up small tanks in the back of vehicles with car battery operated air pumps to display fish.

Some may even bring a small generator to maintain fish.

Committee can take moneys for "car entry" at gate - no other moneys need to be collated or tracked.

Dry stock sales table can still be set up, inclusive of fish bagging services

Canteen can still be run by NSWSC

Perhaps a $10 entrance fee

If a seller only has a bag or two (of limited value), perhaps it would be permissible for them to "car share" on the day, and split the entrance cost. A scrutineer would need to oversee this to make sure people don't take advantage of the idea.

Problems

No fish sales outside gate. People would still be allowed to coordinate meeting people outside the car boot sales location to pick-up/purchase fish (organised for example via the SCP as already happens with the auction days), but it would not be acceptable for individuals to attend the car boot sale, but park outside the grounds to avoid the entrance fee with the intent of picking up passing trade generated by the car boot sale.

Scrutineers still need to check bagging of fish.

Weather (rain) will affect sale day.

Sellers will need to bring change.

Craig

[Teamsherman]

You've obviously done some homework on the idea.

Great idea mate, i reckon it would be a great day for sellers and buyers alike!

Consider this as a positive vote!!

[Bijengum]

I can't really see it working very effectively. Far fewer fish would be sold. The picture up on the screen contributes a lot to potential sales as people can see what the relatively plain looking fry have the potential to turn into. Not all the buyers know enough about the fish to see their potential. Sitting out in the sun all day with a car load of fish may also be a problem. My vote is to stay with the current auction format.

[CThompson]

Selling fish in the middle of winter isn’t exactly ideal for the fish also, but that is done. A car boot sale also would have issues to sort out such as this, but it could be done. Sellers would have to take responsibly for their fish and monitor the situation ongoing, which doesn’t happen during an auction as the fish are all “up there”. Fewer fish may or may not be sold, depends of the popularity, and how many sellers come. As to the down side of fewer fish being sold, the numbers are not an issue for the NSWSC as they would make their money on the number of cars/people participating (as well as canteen and sale table), not on fish numbers. In regards to not having the screen to see the fish (which is really great by the way), sellers and buyers can have books with them or sellers photos of the parents with them. As the time factor is not present as it is with fish under the hammer at an auction, discussion can be had by both parties (sellers and buyers) as to the fish being sold. And now that you mention it, this would allow a closer inspection by the buyers, and disreputable sellers wouldn’t be able to pass off fish that are not of “commercial quality”. As happens with the auction at the moment there are people who have purchase young fish only to discover under closer inspection they are deformed).

Be a half glass full and not half empty (-;

This not a "voiting" situation, I'm just putting a flag up.

Craig

[crabros]

Hi Craig,

I think it is a good idea as there hasnt been something new done with the club for ages or a fish room-aquarium crawl for such a loooooooooooooooooooooong time it would be enjoyable to mingle and talk and sell fish all at the same time.

I would give it a go. Even just to talk to other people and swap ideas.

Brett

[Burek]

I reckon its a good idea!

More space in the oval aswell so thats good.

Lol liek the markets, everyone walk around buying fish from peoples car, not a bad idea.

i reckon go for it!!!

[BlakeyBoyR]

I think as a CONCEPT its fantastic, however some serious thought would have to be given to how it could be most effectively implemented. I know that is very "fence-sitter" of me, but I think the idea itself is great, it would, as I said, be how it could be set up with the least amount of problems that might be a a problem in itself

[parrdog]

People have stated the problems that may arise with this new format. No matter what the format may be, there will alaways be problems to overcome. The gremlins in the computers at the auction are testimony to that.

I think the car boot idea is a great one. One of the reasons being that the day would be more social. The auction is awesome but it doesn't allow people to browse and mingle since the success of the auction depends on people staying put and controlling conversation. Also, people who just want to have a sticky beak at the fish would be able to. Another reason being that people who don't have all day to spare can see what is on offer and purchase on the spot instead of waiting for a type of fish to come up at the auction.

The auction is a proven success that should not be given the punt but a new, fun idea such as the car boot sale should seriously be considered. If the two could not be run on the same year maybe they could be run on alternate years, and hey, if the new idea doesn't work atleast it was given a try.

Jamie.

[folkner]

Positive - I like the idea Craig as it would be more options to sell stock and it makes people aware of who you are and what fish you breed in a central location. People can also see first hand who has quality stock and might buy more if they could see fish they are not aware of.

Negative - What I think is a bad thing is that there are breeders in the club who sell to LFS. Are the LFS going to be impressed with breeders who sell stock to them and then also openly sell to the general public (who I assume are welcome) which is effectively their market. What pricing would be the norm on such an event... Retail or prices that would be common to sell to a shop.

At least when it is an auction the seller is not obvious or setting a maximum price. As you would have seen in the heat of bidding some fish go well above their worth.

Mayby I am thinking too deeply into this and if it was an annual event it might not offend anyone and be a great fun day but if it got to be a regular event I think it could damage the industry and devalue fish as several breeders undersell each other. Wont even go into maintaining good bloodlines.

Regards Josh

[CThompson]

Without doubt there would be problems that would need to be solved (for example some controls on where cars parked, and how to maintain access to cars arriving later) as parrdog mentioned. But I think one of the best things that go with this idea is that I believe there will be over all less problems (some may be swapped) than at an auction, and a huge work would be dropped for the committee.

One of the other benefits is that the day would be a lot more social, but I don’t like the sound of people who just come for a “sticky beak” if that involves bags being held/squeezed/manhandled, but that will be up to the discretion of the owner (taking the responsibilty off the committed).

I think if shops are upset by this, they would already been upset by the auctions – and hey, the shops come to buy at the auctions, so perhaps they will also participate at the car boot sale as well. As for the price of the fish, and repercussions the owner may or may not have with a shop. I don’t think that should be seen as a barrier to stop such an idea, it’s a free market after all, and if people sell their fish too cheaply, as time goes by this will be self levelling I think. If an argument could be found that would support this issue, the same argument would stand for people selling fish too cheaply on the SCP. Myself, I don’t sell my fish privately for the same price I sell to shops for this reason.

Personally, I think the biggest detriment to this idea is maintaining stress free healthy fish as is possible. I would think that if this idea is taken up, replacing one of the two big auction days, and have only one big auction, and one car boot sale per year would not be swamping things too much. If this is the case, the question will be “is it easier to maintain fish in your car boot in the Winter or the Spring?” I expect Spring would be the better time as though direct the sun may be hot, if the fish bags are out of the sun, the temperature is pretty good at that time of year. In the Winter time, some protection is afforded to the fish by being under a roof, with heating (of sorts...)

Craig

[YeW]

Craig -

You'll need to put it in a letter and post it to the society if you want the committee to look at it.

I personally think the idea has some merits, however, I dont speak for the committee as a whole.

Cheers -

[Gav]

to be hoenst I wouldn't say there is enough problems with the auction to even consider a need to find alternatives. if people felt a car boot sale was a great idea, there is no particular need to replace an auction to do so. you just do so on another day. that way if it is a success, you do it again and maybe make it a regular event. if not it will fall by the wayside. but reducing the amount of major auctions is a pretty hefty call.

[chorrylan]

hi,

I like the concept but would suggest the following alerations:

1. have it as an addition to the auctions rather than instead of one.

2. run it in the hall still. Just allocate tables/trestles to each seller.

3. run the sale process like:

. seller offers bag at price x

. buyer and seller agree or haggle to reach price and seller records buyer number, bag number and agreed price.

. buyer trundles off to a designated paystation where they pay their money and get a recipt to say so.

. buyer trundles back to the seller and exchanges receipt for fish.

That way the club still manages to have some control over the process to defray costs etc and newby members with 2 bags of electric yellows and one of bristlenose still get to participate.

The big plus is I'd expect many more sales per hour than is possible with an auction context so we all leave earlier and i'm not floating fish at 3:30am the next morning.

As an aside... when bird keepers do this sort of stuff they have an additional rule that no trades may happen before a set time and buyers get to snoop around then must vacate the hall and are all allowed back in at a set time. This helps to avoid having the early-birds get all the bargains and anyone who has to travel any sort of distance from being disadvantaged.

Cheers,

Laurie

[TropheusQueen]

Hi all,

There must be some form of ESP in the wind.

This very idea was brought up at the last committee meeting and is under discussion at present so the comments placed here will be very beneficial.

I don't agree however with Brett's comment that nothing new has happened in a "looooooong time" however, in my opinion the past two years have seen the auctions enhanced with data projected images, the American show, a definable increase in members and a friendlier feel to the club. I have also been on numerous fish outings with club members .

Keep up the discussion on this guys and you may see some result.

Cheers

Aline

[Ducksta]

I have a funny feeling I was talking about this with someone a couple of months ago... Maybe it was Baz? As he drove me but I can't be sure... Wierd...

[BaZ]

Yeah Duck I think it was then, cos it rings a bell with me too.

I like Laurie's idea better, tables in the hall is better than standing around cars I think.

I also think it should be in addition to the auctions, not instead of. As Gav points out, why sacrifice a good auction for something which is not a guaranteed success?

[ViS]

There is also a courtyard outside the hall where people could set up tables if they weren't quick enough to be allocated a table inside. Part of the courtyard is under cover as well.

I don't believe shops would be angry at this idea any more than an auction. Plus, the Society is aimed at keeping the members happy more than pleasing local shops.

I think it has merit. The way I see it:

There would be a greater number of sellers.

There would be a far greater turnover of bags than at an auction.

People would get the chance to talk to the breeder about the fish (temperament, breeding etc).

People get to view the fish first hand and see the quality themselves.

I like the idea of paying at a central location. This would ensure the Society can track total sales and could take their 10% from the total sales and distribute cheques later, like at the auction. To expand on it a bit, I think it would work better if people registered their interest and were allocated lot numbers (but there would be no limit to the lots). People then attached the numbers to their bags. Once a deal has been made, the seller writes on a pre printed slip of paper the lot number and the sale price. The buyer takes the slip of paper to the central pay point and pays. A receipt is issued at the pay point and stapled to the lot slip. The buyer then collects his bag of fish from the table. Each transaction would only take a minute to record and issue (all that would be needed to add to a database would be the lot number and sale price). If sellers did not use all their lots or they did not all sell, then the info will not have been entered into the database so they won't matter. We could suggest that each person is only allocated say, 20 lots, but there would be no limit on the number of sellers (unless space dictates a limit).

However, if this seems too much of a hassle for the staff (which it may well be considering the numbers of bags being sold), then perhaps a gate fee or fee per bag brought into the hall might be a far simpler and easier way to do it.

There could still be checking of the fish at entry, but it would not be as thorough as people will be taking responsibility themselves for checking quality (much like they do at any LFS). It could be a quick browse by the NSWCS staff or other volunteers to ensure the fish are likely to survive the day and there are no obvious deformed fish etc).

The day could start as early as 10am without a problem and could finish up at 5pm, giving the fish a reprieve and allowing those who have to travel a decent bedtime

I don't see many negatives if it is well thought out and planned. If we start up a northern NSWCS branch, this is the kind of day we'd look at having as opposed to a major auction.

[Ducksta]

Why is the society taking 10% though? Personally I would happily donate that amount or more using an "honesty" system. And those who are really cheap and want to pretend they didnt sell anything are fine to be stingy too.

The reason I like it most, is that it would not require the volunteers that an auction does (scrutineers/auctioneers/runners/cash box attendant/database operators) for those oh so long hours!! Everybody is doing their own running around for their own profit/benefit. By making a central sales/database/cash handling place, that would actually put more pressure on the "cash box operator" than an auction, because it wouldn't be one at a time sales, but just a mess of people wanting to pay and get outta there.

I much prefer the $10 (or $50, irrelavent for now) per car-space/table-space system as this would make it an easier day on the committee, and a day where they too can browse, buy, sell, socialise, eat hot dogs and the like without having to man some important job all day. I guess the one problem with the flat fee is having a way that would encourage a member with 5 bags of electric yellows to still want to be a part of it alongside the bloke who has brought a van full of styros packed to capacity with a plethora of species.

Perhaps the fee could then be based on the amount of table space you 'rent'? or the number of boxes you wish to sell?

[Kram]

I tend to agree with Gav. The auction is a great sucess, if something s not broken why fix it. But having an car boot sale also have its advantages. Bring it on as an seperate event.

[BaZ]

Why not just make it a $10 fee to run a table, and the society could make money in other ways on the day.

The society could sell food and also set up their own table (trade table) for the day. That should allow them to raise some money while not having to monitor sales for the day.

I like the idea of bringing my own change, selling my own fish, at my own prices and doing my own haggling.

Bring it on!

[Ducksta]

I got dibs sharing a table with Baz. I can send him on errands to the hot dog facilities and such

[ViS]

The society needs to make something back for the use of the school and to be sheltered under their Public Liability umbrella

A gate fee or cut of takings would be fine, as long as it was official and fair to all.

[Dark Morelia]

Hey Guys,

I think it's a brilliant idea !

It's the system bird people use at Bird Sales.

Most of the Bird Sales i've been to (a fair few) don't charge for the table, but Sellers have to book it, and you usually pay $1 per bird entry fee, or 50c for common ones like zebra finches, budgies, etc.

I'm sure this is a much fairer way of distributing the cost of the event among the sellers. Whoever brings more to sell, pays more.

I'm sure a system could be worked out by the number of bags, or say a flat fee per bag containing more than a certain number of fish (for fry) or something like that.

It could also probably do away with the need for a central payment centre (what a pain in the butt for buyers that would be!) As the society would get their share as soon as the fish are entered for sale.

There are, of course, strict guidelines for birds entered at the sales, i.e.

"No more than 2 Cockatiels per Cockatiel Show Box"

"All birds must be supplied with good seed and clean water at all times"

etc, etc.

"No trading is to take place before 9:30AM"

I can't see any reason it wouldn't work with a Fish Sale.

Put it this way, I occasionally go to the Bird & Poultry auctions held every saturday, but i always go to a Bird Sale, even driving hours to them (Gunnedah Bird Sale is the birdo's mecca). They're much more sociable events.

There is also the facet to consider that any joe-blow can go to an auction and buy fish and not have a clue about them or how to look after them.

But at a sale, the Seller can be more sure of the home their Fish are going to.

If a Fish Sale is started, i will definitely be there.

If required i can unearth some old Bird Sale flyers and scan em in, so the terms, etc., can be seen.

HTH,

Cheers,

Andy

PS.... one of these days I'll actually remember to go to one of these "NSWCS Meetings" everyone's always raving about and put faces to some of the names on here )

[folkner]

Ok, assuming that this was a once or twice a year thing then I think Laurie has hit the nail on the head. It could be a supplement to the Major Auctions and his idea of having it in the hall still would mean that it could be any time of the year as moderate temps could be maintained in an enclosed room. Also it would be a faster process so it could be done over a few hours.

To combat Craigs fears of people window shopping and just stressing out the fish each seller could do a board of digital photos of the parents of the fry they are selling (with prices) and just have them in front of their table. They could have their stock sitting in foam boxes behind them so if they get some serious interest they can show prospective buyers what lots of that species they have for sale.

Regards Folkner

[CThompson]

KISS – Keep It Simple Stupid.

Doesn’t worry me in the least if there are two major auctions, and a car boot sale. I was just concerned that people might get “fished out”, if there was a third event.

However, I really like the idea of sellers (and I am not even talking about me here) being able to drive a car in, and open the boot (KISS).

I think it is fine that the NSWSC makes money out of the whole thing, however, they don’t only make money from the fish, they do so from the trade table, and canteen facilities.

I think a price per car, regardless of what is in it, is the way to go (KISS), as it will be up to the seller to make it worth their while. After all, not everyone goes to the auctions principally to make money – hey everyone, in case you’ve forgotten, this is a hobby, NOT A BUSINESS! There will be plenty of people who would go to such a thing just to social, as Brett said.

The NSWSC mandate is to further the issue of Cichlids - it is also not there to make money (personally I would like to see the NSWSC have a long term goal of owning a building etc – but that is another story).

I don’t like the idea of a trade tables replacing car boots. A table sale is a separate idea from what I had in mind. If you have tables, and all the rest of the above that described getting sheets and so on going back and forth between committee cash tenders and seller…. All means more work for people and committee members (KISS). Hey, keep an eye on making things easier.

What was the weather like last Saturday? It wasn’t too cold or too hot. Imagine if you would your boot with polystyrene boxes, filled with fish. If the fish were in the shade, they would be fine, what if your boot doesn’t provide enough shade, put a tarp or blanket or sheet like a tent over the back of your car. What if fish still get hot – you could do the same as people do at home on those hot summer days – put some ice in the bag (NSWSC could have some on supply as they do air).

Craig