New build - sump advice needed

[DWBN]

Hi all,

Just recently joined an looking forward to getting inolved with these forums.

I'm currently getting a custom 5 x 2 x 2.5 tank built and am looking for advice on my sump design. The sump will be 3ft long and will be freshwater only. I'd like to use a combination of bio balls/ceramic noodles and K1 media.

This is the basic setup that I have scetched up. Would this do the job well? I have the opportunity now to make changes, so advice would be great.

[PlecoSam]

I would not use the K1 media and bioballs, you have lots of media to consume ammonia and nitrite but not areas for bacteria which consume nitrate, I would remove the k1 and place submerged media such as marine pure blocks or similar. I am not super experienced with sumps though, others could help bettera.

[Alex]

Hi

I recently had a sump built.

I disagree with Sam. I would remove the bioballs and noodles and keep the K1 media. I would replace the bioballs and noodles with some Japanese Matting OR Matala Matting (or similar).

With the water coming up through the chamber that contains your bioballs would mean that this media will be submerged, bioballs work best when water is trickled over them creating a highly oxygenated environment for bacteria to grow and multiply effectively. This definitely needs revision in your design.

You will also need to give some thought on how you will move your K media - I have done it through the use of powerheads and it is working very effectively. The common way to do it is through the use of airstones - I tried this but for whatever reason it didn't work as well as I would have liked. I often hear that airstones work better because they oxygenate the water more than a submerged powerhead - I don't believe this to be the case. The reason airstones oxygenate the water is because they agitate the surface - creating a greater surface area for oxygen to diffuse into the water - there is actually very little diffusion of oxygen into the water through the contact time of the air bubbles being created. The powerhead(s) will aggetate the surface just as much as any airstone will. My point is that there will be very little difference in oxygen available to the beneficial bacteria in a chamber that is moved through airstones or powerheads (assuming similar surface agitation in both scenarios).

The short answer IMO would be. Remove the noodles and bioballs and replace with matting. Leave the rest the same. Not only will the matting provide excellent mechincal filtration but once it gets dirty it will also offer a biological advantage. You could also then decide to keep or remove the filter wool as appropriate.

Many keepers over complicate sumps - Plenty of K1 and Matting is all that is needed for an effective system. I may trial in the future only having a large bioreactor full of K1 and ONLY a prefilter for mechanical filtration - only down side of this is the prefilter would need regular maintenance with large messy fish in comparison to a chamber filled with matting.

Thanks,

[Skippy]

Bioballs are designed to be colonised by aerobic bacteria in a wet/dry position. Having them submerged doesn't provide sufficient oxygen for the aerobic bacteria to thrive. You would be better off replacing them with a media designed to be used submerged e.g. matrix or marine pure.

[DWBN]

Thanks for the replies - I defiantly want to stick with K1 and will play around with airstone/powerheads to get it right. I may have jumped the gun and already purchased the K1 and bioballs...I'll see if I can return the bio balls for some marine pure or matrix.

Is the order right? K1 at the end before the pump, or should this be before the noodles/matrix.

What are peoples experiences with filter socks? Should I go down this route or stick with normal filter wool?

cheers

[DWBN]

and after looking at the design again, if I can't return the bio balls, I'll just add another baffle at the beginning to direct the water over the top of the bio balls and add a drip tray in. Easy

[Alex]

Yes, as K1 is strictly biological filtration, having it in the last chamber before the return pump is the correct placement.

I tossed up with the idea of using a filter sock, but decided against it, due to maintenance (keeping very large messy fish) they would clog up very quickly. Have your baffled set up that if the sock does become clogged the water can flow over the top of a baffle into the next chamber rather than onto the floor.

[Azedenkae]

Hm... all your media allows for nitrication, but none for denitrification.

I agree with Sam and Alex - at least in that you should remove two out of the three. There's really no need for that much nitrification, especially when you don't have any denitrification. I'd suggest going for MarinePure as well, but then again if you go down that route, might as well replace all that with MarinePure. There's no need for bioballs, noodles or K1 if you have MarinePure.

Then have Polyfilter on hand if necessary, which you can place towards the end of the sump when necessary, as it is a good chemical filter media that can work well in an emergency. Or even normally, if you don't mind the spending.

[EDIT]

I see you already have the K1 and bioballs. The other thing you can do is set up an ATS and have that remove your nitrates instead.

[DWBN]

What is an ATS? What media is used for denitrification and under what circumstances is this needed? I thought I covered everything with filter wool, k1 and ceramic noodles,

Do most people here just run filter wool as the first step for mechanical filtration? If so, how often do you have to replace it? Would a course and then fine filter sponge that can be cleaned work instead?

thanks for the input again everyone

[Alex]

Hm... all your media allows for nitrication, but none for denitrification.

I agree with Sam and Alex - at least in that you should remove two out of the three. There's really no need for that much nitrification, especially when you don't have any denitrification. I'd suggest going for MarinePure as well, but then again if you go down that route, might as well replace all that with MarinePure. There's no need for bioballs, noodles or K1 if you have MarinePure.

Then have Polyfilter on hand if necessary, which you can place towards the end of the sump when necessary, as it is a good chemical filter media that can work well in an emergency. Or even normally, if you don't mind the spending.

[EDIT]

I see you already have the K1 and bioballs. The other thing you can do is set up an ATS and have that remove your nitrates instead.

'Removing Nitrates' through the use of filter media is a dangerous game to play.

Most life forms (bacteria, fish etc) in an aquarium lower pH over time through waste (most also produce ammonia that increases pH). Usually the net of this is dragging pH down over time. Your waters KH (carbonate hardness/temporary hardness), is your waters 'resistance to a change in pH', the higher the KH the more resistant to a change in pH. A low KH will mean that pH swings can occur much easier - this is the 'buffering capacity' of your water. The reason I mention this is I see using denitrifying filter media spouted often as an answer to reduced water changes and lower nitrates being - but what about all the other water parameters that must be kept in check? The majority of fish keepers would not dose for KH.

I think the trap people fall into is reading too much into 'denitrifying' filter media is an answer to reduced water changes (I know you haven't mentioned reduced water changes just yet). Do it the old fashioned way, reduce your Nitrates with water changes. I would back in a well cycled K1 fluidised bed and regular water changes over 'Marine Pure' any day of the week!

I don't think that anybody that regularly maintains their aquarium with regular water changes should ever worry about nitrates.

For me there should never be a reason to have to use denitrifying filter media ever. It is more of a gimmick than anything (IMO/IME).

What is an ATS? What media is used for denitrification and under what circumstances is this needed? I thought I covered everything with filter wool, k1 and ceramic noodles,

Do most people here just run filter wool as the first step for mechanical filtration? If so, how often do you have to replace it? Would a course and then fine filter sponge that can be cleaned work instead?

thanks for the input again everyone

Replacement of filter wool is on an as needed basis. Yes you could use different grades of filter sponge, and use filter wool as needed for extra polishing.

Here is a pic of my sump - it is 4'x2.5'x1.5'

The first inlet chamber that the water flows to has some egg crate about half way up, this will be covered with filter wool or similar and weighed down in the future (when extra water polishing is needed), until then it will just stay empty. The water will flow in under the filter wool and have to flow up through the filter wool. The second chamber has an entire 2m length of Japanese matting cut into appropriate pieces. The next chamber has 50L of tumbling K media then the return chamber with the return pump and heaters) - very simply.

Two things I will modify into the future. Is I will get some egg crate and cut pieces of PVC and prop the Japanese matting off the base of the sump and put something in place from stopping the k1 from getting in between the baffles between the matting and k1.

Also of note is I have cut lids for the sump out of twin wall polycarbonate sheeting - this stuff is great and it is very easy to work with, and have cut very tight fitting lids around the pipe work and electrical chords. This greatly reduces evaporation and helps with sound. Also much easier to deal with than glass.

Everything I have posted in this thread is just my own opinion based on my own fish keeping experience. I have tried many different forms of filtration - side drops, above tank trickle filters, canisters etc etc etc

[Link2Hell]

for the intake side I think foam blocks med on the bottom and coarse on top of that then

Dacron mat rather than just filter wool

as has been noted bio balls are wet/dry and if you want to add them a chamber under the

pipes sitting on top of the sump with drip tray/spreader plate

I would section the K1 media chamber into 2 so it fluidises the K1 better than in a large volume

chamber where you would loose circulation

Alex has 50lt in the K1 chamber of his sump and it appears to have just the right chamber size

also note the gap between the partitions

the drawing shows the chamber dividers below the height of the sump make sure that is how

it's built to allow back flow with a power out you need to calculate the amount of water above

the tank outlet and then check you have enough capacity in the sump

that's how I see it

[PlecoSam]

No Alex is right, I thought there was a drip plate but yeah one or the other, no need for both.

[Azedenkae]

@Alex: I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Yes, any sort of organism in an aquarium will change the environment to a degree. Yes, de-nitrifying microbes will cause a change, but I find that it doesn't play such a huge role that it causes the collapse of a system. I agree it doesn't replace water changes, but it helps make things more stable in between water changes. Nitrate can cause issues after all, and I'd rather no nitrate than it just getting high. But that's me.

Not sure if you have kept a marine tank, or know about them at least, but people use MarinePure to lower nitrates in their marine tanks all the time. In a marine environment, pH and kH is VERY important, so obviously it has to not play that drastic of a negative role, to still be used widely. If not MarinePure specifically, it'd still be something else similar.

@DWBN: You need an environment with basically no oxygen. I.e. an anaerobic environment. That can only be achieved by having areas with very low flow, so oxygen is taken up. That, or have things like MarinePure, where the pores (at least in stuff like the block) is so deep that the environment there is anaerobic.

ATS is 'algae turf scrubber'. It's something used in marine aquariums, but can be applied to fresh. Google 'algae turf scrubber' to understand more about it.

[PlecoSam]

Yes, no one said anything about not doing water changes, but gimmicky nitrate reduction is fun, it's like chasing a time down the quarter mile! absolutely pointless but the rewards are bragging rights at the coffee shop and blissful clean glass/water!

Are you sure about kH, I've been dosing since I was knee high to a grasshopper?

I also don't know about k1 beating marine pure, both are good at what they do, I don't like marine pure spheres in a sump as the media is expensive and it is rather fragile, I do like the blocks though. I have not tested one against the other but either one is good, K1 can be noisy, marine pure fragile. What about the good old mattern filter, simple and easy, remember ones mans meat?

[Azedenkae]

To each their own with nitrate reduction then I guess. I personally don't find that it is pointless. I mean sure, water changes will do the trick, but between good and even more so, I'd prefer even more so, when the cost doesn't seem to at all hinder going for it. In terms of how it would affect the environment of the tank, specifically. Yes, the price is a bit high, but to me, it's worth it. MarinePure has a much larger surface area to volume ratio than many of the other products on the website. So if one did not compare the actual size of the product, but the surface area to volume ratio it offers, then MarinePure is on par or even better than many other products. So yeah, I'd totally go for MarinePure over any other biological filter media. I like that nitrate is ANOTHER thing that I don't have to worry as much about. In theory, you can even just do water changes to get rid of ammonia and nitrite as well! Of course it takes a lot of water changes (and probably big ones too) to do that, but the same thing applies to nitrate. If you accidently miss out on changing your water for a while, at least your fish has a better chance of surviving. However, that is my preference. I guess not everyone shares the same view.

As for the actual brittleness, yeah it is rather brittle. Though once it's in place... it doesn't really need to move around. At that point, it doesn't really break down, so eh.

[PlecoSam]

I agree aze, I didn't really mean pointless, it just helps tween changes, was just an analogy.

What about removing marine pure for cleaning, sure it's great in a small space like a canister but in a sump I find it pointless, once you have enough room for bacteria you will not get any more bacteria, marine pure spheres are overkill. The spheres are fine in a protected media basket, but pulling them out of a sump one by one as not to damage them well, not for me. In that regard k1 wins hands down, but that is just me, much better off finding a spot for a marine pure brick to live and use a more robust filter media, the benefits are better denitrification.

I still use bio balls over a tricke and use marine pure bricks :-)

[Azedenkae]

Well, I've personally never removed MarinePure out to clean, ever. Is there a need to? I mean, if it just keeps on sitting there doing its job, and doesn't get dirty, there's no need to clean it right? I still like it more than others due to the denitrification. But you're right, if you're just after nitrification, and have plenty of space, then might as well go for something else.

[PlecoSam]

Dunno, I've got ocd, hahaha.

[Buccal]

@Alex: I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Yes, any sort of organism in an aquarium will change the environment to a degree. Yes, de-nitrifying microbes will cause a change, but I find that it doesn't play such a huge role that it causes the collapse of a system. I agree it doesn't replace water changes, but it helps make things more stable in between water changes. Nitrate can cause issues after all, and I'd rather no nitrate than it just getting high. But that's me.

Not sure if you have kept a marine tank, or know about them at least, but people use MarinePure to lower nitrates in their marine tanks all the time. In a marine environment, pH and kH is VERY important, so obviously it has to not play that drastic of a negative role, to still be used widely. If not MarinePure specifically, it'd still be something else similar.

@DWBN: You need an environment with basically no oxygen. I.e. an anaerobic environment. That can only be achieved by having areas with very low flow, so oxygen is taken up. That, or have things like MarinePure, where the pores (at least in stuff like the block) is so deep that the environment there is anaerobic.

ATS is 'algae turf scrubber'. It's something used in marine aquariums, but can be applied to fresh. Google 'algae turf scrubber' to understand more about it.

Not sure if you know,,, the control of nitrates in a salt water tank works differently to control of nitrates in fresh water,,,,,, water chemistry are not alike to begin with. (so protein skimmers in fresh water don't work).

Salt water tanks reduce a percentage of nitrates by using aggressive protein skimmers.

These protein skimmers won't work this way in fresh water.

Fresh water tanks reduce a percentage of nitrates via fresh water changes.

Nitrate levels are more fatal for salt water fish,,,,,,,, and most cichlids handle high nitrates quite suprisingly high,,, up to a safe 60pmm max.

The major thing with higher nitrates though,,,, is that it generates disease and gram negative bacterial issues.

Diluted via water change weekly/fortnightly will dilute nitrates to safe levels for fresh water fish.

This is why salt tanks are lighter stocked to ensure a respective nitrate reduction, and strike a balanced cycle.

Fresh water tanks,, especially cichlids can be far more densely stocked, as there's no balance to strike and freshys tolerate some nitrates. (constant water changes determines nitrate concentration)......

Also when looking at and designing adequate filtration,,,,, the very first thing you focus on is inhabitance/species,,, As filtration design is often determined by what life it's supporting.

Tailoring filtration to suit requirements of fish is a art,,, and with also other things like maintenance time lowered as added privilege.

In fresh, if your filters/filter has large cube space, then you go a little more raw,, meaning ? Proportioning mechanical and bio filtration.

When smaller spaces are involved, (like canisters), then efficiency is needed, and technology claims to make use of small spaces.

KH plays a very important role in fresh water, stability in PH value and stabilizing,,,, without going into other subjects////// KH value supports fish health and beneficial bacteria welfare.

[Buccal]

But with the K media subject,,, powerheads, air stones or motion channels in sumps,,,,,,,, all work,,, it's all about creating that circular motion or mish mash tumble cutting.

Coarse bubbles are needed for mish mash method, so usually depending on size,, small pond pumps to rage and maintain pressure though coarse bubble holes.

Fast interchangeable mechanical screens as with wool is handy in the design as well.

Big cube sumps need not be fancy.

Number one question I ask myself in design,,, what will happen to this design If I don't replace or clean after exttended time.

Standard jap matting is incredible mechanical media,, don't mock me I know,, (jap mat is bio)

Under heavier loads, the particles start sticking to jap mat,, as it clogs it invests on itself banking up.

Mechanical effects work exceptional from 1/4 spent to 3/4 spent. With jap mat. And this duration is long time till needing another mat clean.

Designing a filter is one thing, but using it is another.

[Azedenkae]

@Buccal: Actuay, I do know about salt versus freshwater aquarium requirements. Yes, it is true that the water parameters required are very different, and yes, it is true that nitrate is more dangerous in a saltwater environment. And yeah, skimmers don't work in freshwater. However, you'd probably need to update your info on what people normally do with saltwater aquariums, as many people simply forgo skimmers entirely and rely on other methods, such as biological filtration, to remove nitrates. I am one of them, amongst many others. Yes skimmers can be one of the ways to keep nitrates down in saltwater aquariums, but that's not the only control method.

There's more to say, but we are really derailing this topic. If you guys like, we can start a separate topic to debate all this. Coz I'd like to talk more about this as well.

[PlecoSam]

I don't know why some people are so against nitrate reduction, not so much here but a few over at qldaf get very hot under the collar about nitrate reduction methods.

[Buccal]

The thing is, any form of nitrate reduction in freshwater other than water changes is so so so minimal (even if accomplished at all),, it's never worth going there.

You can never escape water changes,,, need more nitrate extraction, simple, more or bigger water changes.

Passing water extremely slow through certain medias in low or no levels oxygen to harbor bacteria that reduces nitrates is so Minimal that it hardly has any impact on the usual raviness Cichlid set up.

Even alcohol or solution fed reactors are NEVER what they claim.

There's nothing new about it,,,,, I'm 40 and kept fish since 10-12 years of age.

I now do this on a serious scale on all aspects (commercial),,, I'm now more passionate about the cost economics of breeding (husbandry) together with the sciences.

I've explored a lot.

If you have some secret that illudes many great freshwater breeders in oz,,, that will reduce 10ppm of nitrates at least in a week of well stocked situations (which almost still wouldnt be worth it), then just say what your using,,, and if you have no such instrument or device it's waisting energy discussing it.

[Buccal]

There was never any discussion of saltwater fish keeping in this topic,, except for salt water products like bio balls ect, which are only used for surface area standard filtration requirements in fresh water (which "again", will work different in fresh).

When you can keep more than 30 adult stingrays and breeding (50-60cm +) and succeed permanently,,,, then you know fresh water management is more than adequate.

[PlecoSam]

Yes but Buccal trying to achieve zero nitrates is like the chase down the quarter or chasing a hot woman, you are starting to sound like some of the guys at qldaf. Some people enjoy tinkering and trying things, sometimes they work and sometimes they do not, some people like gadgets others do not.

I am happy spending money on things for my tanks, I don't have kids or a wife and I never will, so I enjoy waiting for that new gadget to arrive, gives me something to look forward to, it's only money. I will always do water changes, I always have, they are easy if you have the right tools and I do not understand why you would not do them.

Remember we are all different in this world, it sounds like you like chasing a cheap and zero cost setup, that's great, that excites you! I would love a salt water setup purely for the gadgetry, but I am not prepared to pay the power cost. I have had some success with Nitragaurd and in my new tank I will be trying carbon dosing with a reactor, along with a purigen reactor. The cost to me is only the power of a low wattage pump, I am also trialling a new low cost setup using air lift technology.

One day I will setup a logic controlled fish room, that is my dream! I was once a Process Contol Engineer and maintained and programmed large PCS systems, ah man how good would that be, touch screen with pH, flow rates, turbity, push button water changes! Hahaha, one day!