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nsw cichlid society major auction


malawi sand diver

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Great night last night thanks to all for arranging.

Some nice species going through seemed to be some rare south americans i havent seen before.

And how good were the L numbers and killifish.

Unfortunately I think I picked up hybrid red empress/spilonotus tanzania. a warning to those who got red empress last night they are hybrid. No fault of the society but of the people putting them in. Hard to tell with fish that size.

I have also seen a lot of albino zebras of one kind or another albino greysaki, albino afra cobwe, albino ob zebra, albino red zebra. What are the chances all of these albino mbuna suddenly appearing? They all look very similar. I am a bit skeptical.

 

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It is not the society's fault. they are people that volunteer their time and effort. I am just someone whinging about it that is part of the problem not part of the solution. But at least I raise awareness of it I guess. Seems some of the albinos around at the moment are hybrids brought into existance to make a buck.the thing is with albinos mbuna is it is very hard to tell what they actually are. 

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I also got some hybrid red empress/spilonotus tanzania. a warning to those who got red empress last night they are hybrid. No fault of the society but of the people putting them in.

Please supply the club with the lot numbers of the hybrids that you purchased so we can look into  this matter.

Are you saying that all the Red Empress that are being sold are hybids ? what do you base this  statement on ?

Quote

I have also seem a lot of albino zebras of one kind or another albino greysaki, albino afra cobwe, albino ob zebra etc etc i say b.s. they are hybrid aswell. Sorry but it needed to be said. what are the chances all of these albino mbuna suddenly appear.

 Why are they all hybrids ? what  do you base this statement on ?

The club  has in the past rejected other "Albino " forms  such as   Cytocara moorii  (  Blue Dolphins  )   as we had facts that they were actually a hybrid 

 If a species can be proven to be  a hybrid  then the club will have no problem at all in rejecting them ...and we regularly do reject species.

 

Quote

Seems some of the albinos around at the moment are hybrids brought into existance to make a buck.the thing is with albinos mbuna is it is very hard to tell what they actually are.

 Sorry but again what do you base this statement on ? and yes as you have stated it is basically impossible to prove what an "albino "actually is , and until we have some kind of proof we have to take peoples word as to what they actually are !

If you feel this strongly please bring it up at  a meeting so we can discuss it...I personally would have no issues banning all the albino form mbuna or any other species that is questionable if that is what the     members want! But  people need to remember that "albinos" do appear naturally and can be bred to  only produce  albino off spring eg. Albino Neolamprologus brichardi  as one species . I personally have a few  albino Julidochromis ornatus,  that came from one spawn   and with  a lot of time  and some work it may be possible to get them to throw pure albino fry ..Then someone can call them hybrids as well I guess.

Regards

Kevin

 

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Thank Kevin

below is a shot of the red empress fry. There were a few lots of the same fry.

I just wanted to flag an issue so people didnt breed with them if there was a problem.

To me the melanin pattern appears too be that of spilonotus tanzania or taiwan reef mixed in. The best red emperess I have kept had always been the solid lines all the way through.

Re the albino zebras, there just seem to be a lot of them relative to what there used to be and they all look the same.

 

20171008_181800.jpg

20171008_181803.jpg

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Thank you for the reply

Can you please send the auction lot number to a committee member so we can look into the

Red Empress issue for you .

In regard to the Albino  Mbuna , I agree with you completely  that there seems to be a lot of them

coming thru nowadays, but until proven otherwise  there is not  a lot we can do.

The Albino Afra cobue are certainly a new one and are coming from the same member.

Please raise the matter at a meeting so we can discuss the Albino  issue you have raised

Kevin

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Ok great thanks Kevin.

The albino issue is a concern when people breed them with the regular species, then sell the regular species.

I am growing an albino red empress alongside and existing red empress male of exactly the same size.

The aim being to compare the 2.

My initial experiment findings are that the albino red empress has dragon blood mixed in due to pointiness of nose.

I will post some comparrison pics.

If hypothetically those 2 cross bred, it may result in the red shoulder 3 dot melanin pattern mixed with the red empress 2 line pattern.

I guess its a case of not spoiling it for the albino fans, but just keeping an eye out for potential issues. Mbuna seem a lot harder to spot differences than haps.

Regards, Rob

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19 hours ago, malawi sand diver said:

Great night last night thanks to all for arranging.

Some nice species going through seemed to be some rare south americans i havent seen before.

And how good were the L numbers and killifish.

Unfortunately I think I picked up hybrid red empress/spilonotus tanzania. a warning to those who got red empress last night they are hybrid. No fault of the society but of the people putting them in. Hard to tell with fish that size.

I have also seen a lot of albino zebras of one kind or another albino greysaki, albino afra cobwe, albino ob zebra, albino red zebra. What are the chances all of these albino mbuna suddenly appearing? They all look very similar. I am a bit skeptical.

 

Could you please name the rare South Americans which were sold at the Auction.

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 The ones I saw were 

Hoplarchus psitticus   ( True Parrot )

Cichla monoculus  ( Peacock Bass )

There  probably were others that I did not see go thru

There was a pretty good range of species  this auction

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I don't know that much about south americans, someone else can name the exact species that I forgot, but the ones I remember were:

Petenia Splendida Green

large pair of blackbelts,

parrot (and "real parrot?")

peacock bass

red shoulder angels

And possibly the best one that I can't remember that I haven't seen before the colour of which in the pic was bright blue.

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 Yes that was some of the others ...my brain is still hurting  from Saturday ;)

 

Manacapura Angels... (.Red Shoulders )  2 bags of 5 young fish and 2 bags of 2  medium fish

Only 1 Green Petenia  splendida  which we don't see often in the auctions

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I’ve personally had concerns about many of the albinos on the scene. A handful of species we know the origins of, and are true to type but just lack the pigmentation, but some of the fish being sold clearly have no more than a passing resemblance to the supposed species.  As MSD suggests, many of the albino mbuna in the hobby in this country seem to fall into this category.

 

One albino that seems to be accepted as pure these days has real question marks over it in my mind – albino Dimi compressiceps.  I’d love to hear other people’s recollections, but I’ve had my memories corroborated by a few other people who were in the game at the time. 


Both albino and OB dimi comps turned up at around the same time. Rumour has it, they apparently both came from the same farm in Asia.  An interesting coincidence that both should come out of the same farm????  Both arrived in Australia around 2003(?), through the same route.  I know that when they arrived there was considerable speculation.  The OBs were clearly hybrids – dimi comps crossed with OB peacocks - but the shape on the albinos was also “off”.  Definitly not as marked as with the OBs, but it was certainly speculated that they too were a peacock / hap cross.

 

I had a period out of the hobby after that, so I can’t say I watched what happened.  I’ve always had the question in my mind though – are the albino dimi comps we have today decedents of those original fish, with the fish being selectively line bred to produce a more typical dimi comp shape over time (something that perhaps hasn’t been as easy/successful with the OB version because of the mbuna influence?).  Or have there been other importations of genuine albino dimi comps since?  If there have been additional importations, have the fish been kept separate from the original strain, or has there been mixing?

 

With many of these albino “species”, I suspect it’s unlikely we will ever really know.  In my view the safest option is just to treat them all as “aquarium strains”.  If they aren’t crossed with normal coloured fish, and offspring sold as pure, then no real damage will be done.

 

Be aware though – the impact is already being seen from the “albino dolphins”.  People have definitely been mixing colonies of albino and blue fish, and selling blue offspring as pure.  Fish likely to have come from such breeding have shown up from at least one wholesaler, and are almost certainly being shipped Australia wide.  The dud fish can show egg spots (something you won’t find on a pure fish), and/or red on the dorsal or anal fin, but unfortunately not all of the hybrids show these features.  Just another thing making it harder for all to protect what we have . . . .

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Sadly it’s not always easy to spot the hybrids as juvis.  I bet we have all been caught out at one time or another – I know I have, even when buying from “reputable” shops and prominent breeders.  And I’m guessing it’s hard to vet fish at an auction . . . . .

I know I keep harping on it, but I seriously think we need a decent register of pure breeding colonies in this country.  Fish which have been vetted by people in the know, and been given a tick of approval.  If such a register existed, then juvis turning up at an action such as this could be recorded as coming from an “accredited” colony.  Would provide buyers a degree of peace of mind, and provide an extra degree of prestige to the seller with potentially more interest in those lots. 

Any such register would need to be a national one, and would need cichlid societies / aquarium societies in all states to get behind it.  It wouldn’t be easy, but I personally feel it’s needed if we are serious about maintaining clean fish in this country.  Time to try to get the discussion ramped up??

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It is interesting wwith albinos - the origin is important and if the albino eye biters come from the same places as the marbled ones it does sound dodgy.

The albino red cheek tropheops appear to be OK but I don't know their origin either.

The register is a great idea and on the radar. I'm starting a new job on Monday, so busy at the moment settling in for a month or 2. But will look into it in future.

The register is a great idea because I have doubts about other species around at the moment that are being bred a lot and circulated a lot.

 

 

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After I posted yesterday I did a bit of a search on the web to see if I could find anything more concrete to back up my thoughts on the albino dimi comps.  I found one reference which pretty much mirrored my comments, but which is much more contemporary (2008). 

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=170391

One of the sad things about the archives in forums is that we no longer have access to the bulk of the photos; and a photo is worth a thousand words.  Would be great to go back and look at shots from the day with fresh eyes.

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 There were mustax,splendens kiku,helianthus,albino brichardi,daffodils,princess,black calvus,white calvus and gold comps

I am sure there were others , I just cant remember them  ;)

 

 

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Hey guys I'm wondering if there is some kind of aquatic fish keeping expo in nsw somewhere ever iv been looking to find a place where like minded fish keeper can get together other that the auction and how do I find out about the auction before it happens I never hear until it's too late I would love to come one day can anyone keep. Me posted

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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