frozen fresh fish food

[Buccal]

So it's already happening then,,,, hmmm, I wonder how insect proteins as a staple for the non-veg protein percentage for rift lake cichlids would go ??

[RD.]

Insect protein will be a non issue, just as protein from krill, fish, etc is.

 

I wrote the following approx. 10 years ago ......

 

In the wild, the cichlids found in the Rift Lakes have evolved & adapted to living in certain niches of the lake, which over time has forced them to become specialized feeders. (as per Ad Konings) Yet all of these specialized feeders will readily eat anything that's available. (as per Ad Konings) While a fish classified as a strict herbivore (such as a Tropheus moorii) may indeed spend its entire day scraping the aufwuchs, I can assure you that they would much rather eat a handful of worms if given the opportunity. In the wild they eat low quality foods because that's the only foods available, not because they choose to! And while Tropheus may in fact be classified by the scientific community as strict herbivores, the reality is that even though algae dominates the stomach contents, the actual foods that make them grow are insect nymphs and larvae, crustaceans, snails, mites, micro-organisms, and zoo plankton, not vegetable matter. (as per Ad Konings)

Their long digestive tracts are designed as such so that in nature they can break down the complex plant matter that they consume, which doesn't mean that they can't properly assimilate more easily digestible forms of protein. Apparently this is a concept that some hobbyists fail to grasp.


Keep in mind that the vast majority of fish are opportunistic feeders, and are all omnivorous to a certain extent. Cichlids classified as carnivores don't just eat meat, any more than a herbivorous cichlid just consumes vegetable matter.

[Buccal]

But there must be particular protein types that better suit the cichlids systems, otherwise why go to the extent of extracting fish or what ever else out of the ocean when much easier and cheaper proteins can be obtained terrestrialy.

Ive always known about the Paleo lakes evolutional adaptations of its inhabitants,,, the adaptations are almost based on purely survival.

I know Otohime hirame is safe because my tropheus are completely fine with it and it's a aquaculture predator so to speak fin fish food.

going out to harvest Krill must be much harder/costly  than breeding up crickets say,,, but the proteins that manufacturers are already using in our rift lake foods must be more compatable or better utilized by the fish, and maybe desperate measures at desperate times may see insects used exclusively in the future......

[malrift]

One interesting insect is the mealworm. They recently found they can eat polystyrene and turn it into an organic fertiliser. It also continues to have the same protein and nutrients on this diet as a food source.

 

[Buccal]

Hah, that's a whacky thing, that's bizarre,,, but I have heard of products made from crude oil can be consumable, but it's long term cancer causing.

Dont know if I'd be happy chucking their castings on my vege patch though hah ha.

[Buccal]

Actually, it would be like eating one of those rediculous rice puff cake things (tasteless polystyrene),,, yuk.

[RD.]

Quote

But there must be particular protein types that better suit the cichlids systems, otherwise why go to the extent of extracting fish or what ever else out of the ocean when much easier and cheaper proteins can be obtained terrestrialy.

I am not so sure that harvesting bugs in quantity, is cheaper or easier than harvesting 10's of tons of fish in a few days. And we know that fish protein and fat works, and works well. The problem as of late is supply and demand, and the current costs involved for a ton of quality fish meal. And while some insects may have a good protein profile, their fat profile could be quite poor, or exceptionally high, for a finfish. Some insects also have a very poor calcium/magnesium ratio, and require supplementations to fill the voids.  (such as crickets) A good read on this subject.

FEEDING CAPTIVE INSECTIVOROUS ANIMALS: NUTRITIONAL ASPECTS OF INSECTS AS FOOD  

http://www.amphibianark.org/pdf/Husbandry/Nutritional%20value%20of%20inverts.pdf

 

For several years now Hikari has been using Silkworm pupae meal, a waste by-product that they have marketed as a premium feed ingredient.

http://www.feedipedia.org/node/199

 

I picked up some of the Nutrafin food to trial, with the main ingredient by dry weight being Black Soldier Fly Larvae.

http://www.feedipedia.org/node/199

The 'small' particle size is perfect for the mouths of angelfish, and discus. My adult Golden Marble Angel seems to like it a lot, as does his tank mates.

The Medium/Large pellet size is huge, more like a "stick" in form, and only for large fish, probably 10" or better.

One thing to watch with some of these foods is the fatty acid content, Nutrafin Bug Bites lists 12.5% as min crude fat, which means the typical analysis is probably closer to 15%. 

 

 

 

 

 

[malrift]

The sinking wafers from hikari with the silkworm is great for catfish. I have been breeding cories for a while and they love this food. Keeps.them in good condition.

 

 

[Buccal]

Australian black worms, have just put out a new sinking blackworm pellet,,,, I've tried it, and seems to work well on sting ray pups that are picky eaters.

 

Im sure with insects that are high or low in certain things like fats or proteins, they could be used in specie combinations to get the right levels.....

Well the money it takes for fuel and labouring out on a boat compared to money it takes to run a onsite insect farm,,, I do know it's super cheap to generate insects.

[malrift]

I know the gel food I get made for me here on the sunny coast has mealworm meal added. I also get one with earthworm meal added. All the fish love it and it conditions the females really well. Plus growth rate has improved since making it part of their daily diet.

[Buccal]

Oz made gel food ??

[malrift]

Yeah its still in testing stage. But it is showing some awesome results.

[Buccal]

Cool,,,,, you always trial new foods that come out are fair bit I've noticed....

[RD.]

Quote

Well the money it takes for fuel and labouring out on a boat compared to money it takes to run a onsite insect farm,,, I do know it's super cheap to generate insects.

The challenge would be quantity - as in being able to supply  customers who are looking to buy 10-50 tons at a time.

[Buccal]

Well they've spoken of human consumption insects, so that scale would be insanely bigger than fish foods.

Insect farms would be a perpetual thing, insects spewing out 24 hours a day if needed.

[malrift]

Yeah I like to give things a go. Before just saying its crap. But know I have pretty much settled as the results Im getting are the best Ive seen. Xtreme is now a permanent not going to change it. This gel food is looking at being a main part of the diet as it is excellent with no fillers. 

The gel food is easy, when I have my coffee with breaky I mix up a 500ml jug of it at the same time. When the time comes for final feed  its ready to go. I just use a teaspoon and place it into every tank. Got to say its the most settled Ive been with what Im feeding could be old age sttin in too.

[Buccal]

Hah ha yeah,,,,, so the gel stuff you mix with water and it sets like wobbly jelly ?

[Buccal]

How much is Extreme costing you per kilo or what ever sizes it's coming in ?    If you can reveal it.

[malrift]

Yeh 1/3rd powder and 2/3rds boiling water. Though I use 1/2 cup of powder to 1 1/2 cups water. I have a deal with a store that gets me the xtreme at wholesale price. Sent you a pm.

[RD.]

Xtreme is middle of the road quality IMHO.  Been around these parts for a long time, not a huge following from what I have seen. AU is a little late to that party.

Quote

This gel food is looking at being a main part of the diet as it is excellent with no fillers. 

All gel foods require water, the water % of most gel foods is quite high. Water is a non nutrient, a filler by any definition.

[Buccal]

Yeah, Xtreme, it it makes me feel stand offish, when seeing so much wheat in different forms (3 times) so close to the beginning of the list,,, but then seems to have a fairly lowish vegetable content.

But a few people I've talked to say it's fine,,, but it usually needs a good 1.5-2 years to tell.

The market for fish foods these days in Oz is clearly divided into high cost buyers and low cost buyers,,,, low cost buyers are forever on the increase and high cost buyers on the descrease.

[malrift]

By fillers I was talking along the lines of the wheat and varius grain content. But I get what you mean. 

[malrift]

Something that I have been giving a lot of thought to is bloat. Many say it is caused by too much protein. I know water quality also has alot to do with it too. But what about fats in the food. We know land animal have different fats to those of aquatic animals and even insects. Could this also be a contributing factor? 

There is probably some test results some where just haven't had a chance to research it properly yet. 

[RD.]

Protein does not cause bloat, old timers fairy tale. I think that I explained bloat in great detail in the following discussion.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/bloat-causes-cures-and-big-myths.456034/

 

Fatty acids generally only cause an issue when they are supplied in excessive amounts, which is why I mentioned it's crude % in the new Bug Bites formula. A high energy species, or many fish in their fry/juvie stage will use up more energy than an adult, so that plays into the overall % as well. Excessive fat leads to fat deposition in and around the organs, and ultimately a shortening of lifespan. Sometimes large gains in growth aren't what's best for the longevity of the fish. This is sometimes why my feed trial results vary from a breeders. Fast growth is never a concern of mine when trialing food.  Reasonable growth to me is fine, total digestibility of the feed is most important as most of todays food are more than good enough to get the job done growth wise, but some old school foods (and even some new) still carb load their foods with low cost starchy ingredients. And yes, Xtreme's use of ingredient splitting their wheat is a prime example.

 

I only mentioned water content as many people feeding gel food sometimes forget that part of the equation. While in a sense it may be more natural to a fish, it also requires to be fed on more of a regular basis, and in larger quantity, due to that high water content.  If you drink one or two large glasses of water right before you eat, you will soon feel full, but will eventually become nutrient starved over time. Same with a fish.

 

[Buccal]

That's why I like otohime, it's super fatty and super digestible with very little beefing up the fish, and on higher scales like rays, excessive intake of otohime creates surprisingly little amount of (after waste) build up,,, otohime feces decintergrate extremely fast once expelled into the environment = lower gram negative bacteria count,,,,,, same results thought out all species.

Trick is true knowledge of specie and sub-species and feeding along with bio types, that can be linked to a fish by looking at its features without necessarily knowing its scientific name,,, increasing or decreasing vegetable using sera flora and same for otohime sparingly.

Ive always been very worried about foods that don't pass through the fish the way it should,,, really tweeks you up working it all out,,, if your good enough, you let your fish tell you.