New build - sump advice needed

[Alex]

I have 50L of K media tumbling in my sump. I use two Otto Powerheads to tumble my media, works brilliantly when coupled with the water falling into the chamber. Only a few very small dead spots of media, which is hard to avoid in a rectangular area.

[DWBN]

What sized power head are they and how do you have them setup?

[Staplez]

Wouldn't be to worried about a total media movement as it promotes anaerobic bacteria in the dead spots.

[Alex]

Staplez - That is something I have seen printed in lots of the promotions for marine pure. I just can't see how a small localised area of k1 media that isn't moving would create a 'microhabitat' of low oxygenated water, even though the media isn't tumbling I think it is fair to assume that the water would still be passing over it fairly freely. I don't think that just because it isn't moving means that the water near the stagnant k media is low or very low in oxygen (or completely void).

I think that a piece of media would really need to become well an truly clogged with debris and 'sludge' for a part of it to create an aerobic area within it.

[Staplez]

Corners will not have the movement required to show otherwise is a square setup.

[Alex]

I'm not sure what that last post means at all? sorry mate.

[Staplez]

No issues, provide me with info on how K 1 helps in a natural setup as I may be missing (overlooking) it. I'm very much a "noob".

[Buccal]

I do not see why it would not work, would probably use more wattage than an air pump though, I used a 7watt tunze for my setup. Buccal has more experience than me though with that style and most style of filters, I would wait for his input.

Everyone's area to house k media is always a different size, shape (scenario outcome).

Wave makers,,,, can work, but some instances the k media just starts getting stuck or accumulating around the rear of the wave maker where the unit draws water in to expell forwards,,,, this can be remedied by making outer cage around the wave maker from gutter guard which will lessen the draw by increasing perimeter surface area of draw..

Power heads seem to have less issues.

Again, everyone's compartment shapes are different with different outcomes.

In the convo the motionless beads were mentioned, as Alex said,, no big deal if it's less than 20% and if more,, it's only efficiency lost and nothing else. With bead filters even k media can be used and is not meant to be moving but completely motionless,,, water is injected from underneath and clean water wells out the top and returns to tank.

So in this case of a bead filter it's essentially a mechanical filter,,,,, a bypass valve is switched to a expulsion drain and then the k media is tumbled for 5 mins or so to loosen and discard crap as waiste.

The pond one pump is a pond pump, not a aquarium pump.

A superior action to k media is achieved through course bubbles (note noisier),,, so a ring manifold is installed to bottom of compartment under k media with rows of 360'c retic riser sprayers. Ring beam manifold made of 25mm poly, 4x elbows, 1x T section and 360'c riser sprayers.

This creates more of a spa effect rather than a circular roll or tumble.

Note,,, that if your k media isn't in full motion when completed and tested,,,,,know that the media is engineered for a neutral buoyancy but slightly towards floating,,,, so this means once beneficial bacteria (bb) grow on/in it, it then becomes buoyancy neutral and starts to tumble with much improvement.

Starting with no fish,,,, between a few tablespoons to half a cup of any pellet fish food thrown into chamber before k media or anywhere in tank or sump,, will speed colonization of bb increasing faster tumbling response.

I thin tall compartment always has better chance of self tumbling without addition of water pumps or air pumps.

I prefer course bubble air pumps as multiple airlift points can be created all over.

Oxygen transference is created by surface aggetation or turnover only,,, the bubbles don't transfer oxygen, it's the air up lift welling and drawing water upwards for surface turnover.

So tumble versus erratic airlift (spa like)..... Well surface turn over is much more fierce with the spa motion,,, there for higher oxygen levels are achieved as a bonus.

If you have medias that need slow flow and lower oxygen levels, it's best to place these before the k media section.

Many ways to skin a cat here,,,, there's no best way,,,, but certainly a choice to best suit your situation is needed,,, if you go that far to have supreme filtration, then why not go as efficient as possible on the workability side.

Pond one 6000 or 8000

I admit my display is pretty noisy,,, every one gets use to it,,,, I'm not lying, if I switch my tank k pump off at night, I can't sleep,, to bloody quite.

[Buccal]

I'm not sure what that last post means at all? sorry mate.

His compartment is very big and square with every distant corner a dead spot which won't warrant a gentle natural tumble method.

[Alex]

The basic advantage of using K1 is that the media moves and the old bacterial colonies are knocked off the outside and recolonised by bacteria that live within the sheltered insides of the media. Constantly producing an area for young/hungry bacteria to colonise. There for providing excellent biological filtration.

The reason i mentioned MarinePure is that it apparently acts as a media that nitrifying bacteria (converting ammonia to nitrite and then nitrate) grows on but ALSO denitrifying bacteria grow on - in the centre where oxygen poor aquarium water gets to. This denitrifying bacteria coverts nitrate to nitrogen gas. That is the nitrogen in Nitrate (NO3) is expelled as Nitrogen gas (N). This is where i assume you got the idea that areas of stagnant K1 media would create areas of poor oxygen availability and thus create a habitat/niche where denitrifying bacteria would grow, something which i disagree with. I simply think that these stagnant areas of k1 media would simply be areas of less active nitrifying bacteria would grow - in comparison to moving media (hope this makes sense).

[Alex]

I do not see why it would not work, would probably use more wattage than an air pump though, I used a 7watt tunze for my setup. Buccal has more experience than me though with that style and most style of filters, I would wait for his input.

Everyone's area to house k media is always a different size, shape (scenario outcome).

Wave makers,,,, can work, but some instances the k media just starts getting stuck or accumulating around the rear of the wave maker where the unit draws water in to expell forwards,,,, this can be remedied by making outer cage around the wave maker from gutter guard which will lessen the draw by increasing perimeter surface area of draw..

Power heads seem to have less issues.

Again, everyone's compartment shapes are different with different outcomes.

In the convo the motionless beads were mentioned, as Alex said,, no big deal if it's less than 20% and if more,, it's only efficiency lost and nothing else. With bead filters even k media can be used and is not meant to be moving but completely motionless,,, water is injected from underneath and clean water wells out the top and returns to tank.

So in this case of a bead filter it's essentially a mechanical filter,,,,, a bypass valve is switched to a expulsion drain and then the k media is tumbled for 5 mins or so to loosen and discard crap as waiste.

The pond one pump is a pond pump, not a aquarium pump.

A superior action to k media is achieved through course bubbles (note noisier),,, so a ring manifold is installed to bottom of compartment under k media with rows of 360'c retic riser sprayers. Ring beam manifold made of 25mm poly, 4x elbows, 1x T section and 360'c riser sprayers.

This creates more of a spa effect rather than a circular roll or tumble.

Note,,, that if your k media isn't in full motion when completed and tested,,,,,know that the media is engineered for a neutral buoyancy but slightly towards floating,,,, so this means once beneficial bacteria (bb) grow on/in it, it then becomes buoyancy neutral and starts to tumble with much improvement.

Starting with no fish,,,, between a few tablespoons to half a cup of any pellet fish food thrown into chamber before k media or anywhere in tank or sump,, will speed colonization of bb increasing faster tumbling response.

I thin tall compartment always has better chance of self tumbling without addition of water pumps or air pumps.

I prefer course bubble air pumps as multiple airlift points can be created all over.

Oxygen transference is created by surface aggetation or turnover only,,, the bubbles don't transfer oxygen, it's the air up lift welling and drawing water upwards for surface turnover.

So tumble versus erratic airlift (spa like)..... Well surface turn over is much more fierce with the spa motion,,, there for higher oxygen levels are achieved as a bonus.

If you have medias that need slow flow and lower oxygen levels, it's best to place these before the k media section.

Many ways to skin a cat here,,,, there's no best way,,,, but certainly a choice to best suit your situation is needed,,, if you go that far to have supreme filtration, then why not go as efficient as possible on the workability side.

Pond one 6000 or 8000

I admit my display is pretty noisy,,, every one gets use to it,,,, I'm not lying, if I switch my tank k pump off at night, I can't sleep,, to bloody quite.

I agree with all of this.

Particular mention to the buoyancy of the media - everything i have been told and read says it has a neutral buoyancy. Not quite I think their is a slight favour to floating rather than sinking, this can be seen if you fill a bucket of k media. It doesn't occupy the exact middle or there bouts of the water column. Instead it kind of floats and then gets stuck under this floating material. I think the biofilm and bacteria add weight to this media, and that is why it then become neutral in buoyancy. This is why when people talk about k media it is always claimed that k media is easier to tumble once colonised, because in my opinion the bacteria and biofilm has added weight to each individual piece of k media, and potentially the biofilm provides a lubrication between the pieces of k media.

and yes again about the movement of the media - everyone thinks that the media works better if you move it through an air pump, because of the air bubbles this is simply not true. People think that air pumps/stones create a more highly oxygenated habitat because it creates bubbles ( and oxygen is diffused through the bubbles), oxygen diffusion through the bubbles moving through the water column does very little for oxygenation, it is all about surface agitation! If you tumble media through a powerhead that creates a lot of surface water agitation it is just as effective as a comparatively rated air pump creating the same amount of surface agitation. It is all about creating the largest possible area for oxygen to be defused into the water.

[Buccal]

^^^^^^

This is why, if a air pump is used, it needs to be a small pond pump for a sump,,,, and with coarse air bubbles for proper uplift creating tumble and surface churn.

Otherwise a aquarium pump and air stone isn't worth while and power heads or wave makers are better options.

[Chuckmeister]

I'm curious why you guys use something that needs to be tumbled, fish room I can understand but why use this system in a display? Is it that much better than a ceramic noodle etc? Noise for me is an issue and I have way more than I need just with my overflow. More wondering if I've neglected tech over the years lol

[Buccal]

EFFICIENCY,,,,, biologically and maintenance wise.

If its not tumbling, it's blocking.

100% efficient 100% of the time.

If its tumbling, it's impossible to block up.

Most bio medias/balls/beads/noodles block up more and more each week, untill just before a clean common medias may only be 30-40% to its working capability.

No dead spots or bypass with k media.

You never have to clean it and I mean never.

K media supports oxygen loving beneficial bacteria (bb).

Common bio media, especially dual mech and bio filters hold waiste and operate as nitrate factories once waiste builds up.

Once k media (pure bio) filtration is added,,, then more thought can go into mechanical filtration which can be better utilized to get rid of waiste solids more often faster,,, to eliminate speed of nitrate build up.

In many circumstances especially rays (primitive systems that spew ammonia all at once),,, k media is a pure lifeline, a absolute must.

I believe that one cup of K media can service a 6 footers biological needs if used properly,,, it's that good.

The robust bb that colonises on k media takes twice the time to fully establish as it gets knocked around.

Simply piece of mind for big beast tank fish or excessive stocked tanks.

Those that don't use K media,,,, Definetely missing out.

[Chuckmeister]

yeah I can appreciate that, makes sense and I knew the basic science behind it though I'm wondering how many people overstock their tanks and if its worth the money and sound (tumbling) for a display tank.

One cup of K media for a 6 footer...thats a big call ... I dont know though...I stick with my traditional stuff without any issues but I dont overstock either

[PlecoSam]

I like the K1 or K3 media chucky, I don't use it though, old skool bio balls for me in my new aquarium, Buccal does make a point about efficiency but with 25l of bio balls plus a marine pure block and 2litres of bio sponges, efficiency in my system can drop and still work effectively.

K3 media is probably the future or is very promising, I can change my sump section and tumble 30litres of kaldness if I chose to one day, and I may do that but I just love bio balls! they look cool and I like the oxygen rich environment. I just do not want to get used to the noise, my tank is outside my bedroom, hence the expensive DC pump.

The fact a sump is massive overkill is the reason I do not like to use marine pure spheres, they are about perfect for a canister but are too fragile and expensive for a sump, in a fish room, with a single filter I would use Kaldness media in a heartbeat but for my display I sit with you chucky my boy!

I suppose at 40 I am getting old hey Chucky!! but hey this hobby is all about fun and I love the fact different methods can and will work, we are all different and we all setup our sumps the way we like, I also like the fact that there is no real right or wrong way, just different methods with both positives and negatives!

:-)

[PlecoSam]

I suppose with air lift and a few tubes you can achieve better tumbling of kaldness, wavemaker the easy way, but if you like to play airlift for the win, with lower wattage but the cost being noise. Hey just had a thought, would airlift if setup with a tube ring, I mean a u shaped ring around the edges of the square create uplift and prevent the kaldness banging on the glass?

That is the noise I don't like, the clanging on the glass, craP! screw you Buccal now I have to make a prototype! Haha!! Hey, no one steal my idea, I am going to prototype it :-)

[DWBN]

I'm going for a very low to quiet setup. Noise for me is an issue and that was my hesitation about using air. I could go and get a powerful airpump, but the noise would be a constant issue.

I've ordered two wavemakers to move things around. The outer cage should work well enough to prevent K1 from being sucked in, and allow enough water flow to the impeller so it can do it's job.

After looking back at my setup, my tank builder thinks I have 'too much' filtration

Filter wool --> 10kg ceramic noodles --> 3litres of marine pure ---> 50 litres of K1

[PlecoSam]

Wow, that is some bio!

[Link2Hell]

OK Sam where are the pics of your prototype you've had long enough

[Buccal]

Yeah, k media isn't nessesary for lightly stocked petite aquariums

If you have a longterm balance of fish and tank space then k media isn't nessesary.

My display inside has heaps of malawis but heaps of everything else from every corner of the world lol,,, Even a few docile flowerhorn, red terror, pimalodus ornatus, hemabagrus cats,,, red spot Myleus rubripinnis,,,, just scratching the surface.

Activity is wildly intense and trust me, it just looks right in a collector ornamental sense.

30% water change every night and Kaldness,,,,, it's infalable,,, I foot long fish can die and not even ammo spike.

I've got insane numbers of stingrays, so big that everyone goes silent and stares,,, again, K 3 on the ray pens.

Barramundi runways of 15000 liters will raise 10000 Barra to 15-25cm no probs, again, huge tub of k media, no probs.

Unfortunately I cant use k in breedroom main sump,,,, as for one hour there is 60,000 liters/hour pumps running through it,,,, then alternating for another hour to second half of room with 40,000 liters/hour.

The K media just gets pinned with no motion.

I've also found that best efficiency for nitrate reduction, well not reduction but control,,, is to have mechanical medias suspended out of the water body.

This way, the water falls through and media collects crap,,, the crap constantly catches on itself in a form of continual investment.

As it collects the water flow stays to outer boundaries,,, this means that the crap is not submersed under water acting like a nitrate factory,,,,, the crap is suspended above filter.

No one knows what ammo, nitrite and nitrate build up is untill you keep 60cm plus adult rays x 6 in 5-6k liter pens.

They create so much waiste,, yet pretty sensitive to it to.

Large areas call for raw efficient 100% fool proof, never blocking media.

[Buccal]

When speaking of uplift with bubbles,,, I see your thinking of airlift tubes like on the common sponge filters. Pleco Sam.

No tubes needed,,,, just solid course bubbles rising from bottom to top creates incredible lift,,,,, in fact, a 6000 liter pond one air pump would poo all over a 1500 liter hour wave maker for turnover.

If you throw in 1mm spectrum letting it sink, you would see it draw into bubbles on the bottom then get shot up the lift motion and expelled outwards, only to return again to bubbles below to get shot up again,,, repetitively.

[PlecoSam]

No my idea is a u shaped tube around the edge of the kaldness chamber with holes drilled every inch or so, thus creating an air curtain the circumference of the chamber. The only side without the air curtain is where the water comes in and hopefully tumbling the kaldness but keeping it off the glass. :-)

[PlecoSam]

I did some design work for an explosive factory Buccal, you don't know ammonia until you have created ammonium nitrate prill! hahaha!

[Buccal]

Hah ha, mate I believe you, it sounds nasty.

With your U shape tube you explained,,, that's the manifold I've already spoken of made of 25mm poly pipe,,, but it's not a U it's a square.

Instead of drilling holes in manifold,,, which gives you inconsistent release of air bubbles,, (especially if the manifold isn't perfectly laid down level),,, you put 360,c riser retic sprayers (without the riser of coarse).

This way it releases consistent amount of air through out the manifold,,,, it helps to give back pressure to manifold to run more economically also,,, drive wise.

I have done the s h i t out of everything like this, plenty failed attempts, waisting hundreds even thousands of dollars making way to better ideas.

I use to run bio balls on the rays,,,, worked fine when they were pups to teenagers (1 year old),,, but after that, the bio balls manked up weekly, and rays noses use to raise and wobble curl,,, this is minor temporary ammo presence.

K media, I never saw that nose raise again, even now that rays are fifteen times bigger and twice as many.

K media just isn't more efficient, it drastically reduces maintenance to zero in the bio media department.

A low to moderate stocked cichlid display tank,,, I never look past the all mighty FX legend