shannon Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Recently I've noticed alot of people asking if wc fish for sale have papers as proof ? I've got wc fish but don't have papers and never thought to ask for any. Is it common practice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joller Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 a piece of paper is as much proof as someones word as far as i'm concerned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I am pretty sure this was just a piece of paper from the importer. I am with joller on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwah Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 totally agree.. i've imported wc with no papers, the fish speak for themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogboy Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 so those papers saying my F1 fish are F1, which are now completely crumpled at the bottom of my glovebox, are useless??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shannon Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 I'm pretty trusting and if someone says their fish is wild caught who am I to accuse them of being untruthful. If the quality is there I don't see a need for papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristlenut Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 please correct me if i am wrong but how will the quality be there, when most aquarium fish have been selectively bred for better shape, size, markings, or colour.in the trade for decades,so i thought most people are prepared to pay through the nose simply to get new bloodlines,to prevent some of the inbred problems you come across after the bloodlines become to inbred.thanks in advance for your replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E4G13M4N Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 The only fish i know of that came with papers are Arrow's that are microchipped, all that proved was that they were illegle imports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shon982 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 please correct me if i am wrong but how will the quality be there, when most aquarium fish have been selectively bred for better shape, size, markings, or colour.in the trade for decades,so i thought most people are prepared to pay through the nose simply to get new bloodlines,to prevent some of the inbred problems you come across after the bloodlines become to inbred.thanks in advance for your replies.new bloodline usually means better quality and colourationbetter genetics than those fish which are already being bred hereFor example ochrogenys ndole, german bred stock have much brighter and more blue-ish and green scales on the body even when males aren't showing off compared to the ones which have been around here for ages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishinf Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Recently I've noticed alot of people asking if wc fish for sale have papers as proof ? I've got wc fish but don't have papers and never thought to ask for any. Is it common practice?i think the most important thing is to keep your name good ..that way when you sell fry people believe you no need for paper just good rep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shannon Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 Recently I've noticed alot of people asking if wc fish for sale have papers as proof ? I've got wc fish but don't have papers and never thought to ask for any. Is it common practice?i think the most important thing is to keep your name good ..that way when you sell fry people believe you no need for paper just good repI understand that. I haven't been askedfor papers I've just noticed others asking. As for tank bred being better quality than wild caught, I'd assume many problems with fish would come from the bloodlines being blurred while line breeding whereas wild caughts have very little chance of being related. When fish are line bred usually isn't it to match a picture or something of the actual fish in the wild? I don't know of anyone line breeding to get away from what a fish normally should look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shon982 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Yes but over time, with a limited gene pool the genetic variability is reduced and more undesired traits begin to become more frequent even if you can't see itWith a lot of fish, you never see them even colour up before they're soldReputation is a big thing as well, word spreads pretty easyIt's not necessarily tank bred vs. wild caught. It's just the genetic variability. Same reason some people think german bred fish or pond raised fish are no better quality than what we have here. It is wrong to think about it like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosedagoose Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 you get papers from aquatic escape when buying w\c's. I'd rather get fish with papers IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 But who supplies the papers and what does it Guarantee? Is it aquatic escapes or their supplier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 How could you possibly prove the fish in the tank are the ones the paper refers to? Short of microchipping every collected WC fish.I'd say the paper would be better utilised by the Sorbent company... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosedagoose Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 The papers are from aquatic escape. It's like what has been said,, Trust.... I'd be more inclined to trust someone with them then without. At least then you have a receipt for your hard earned cash.. Yeah who knows if the fish in question are from that paper.. but then again like some would say how do you know they are actually w\c to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 So that is a certificate from an importer/breeder who acknowledges that any wild caught fish have passed through multiple sets of hands before landing.Africa - catchers, exporters (possibly one company - possibly not)Germany - importers/exports (as above)Also the company seems not to maintain their web address anymore?My opinion only - But I'd buy from someone with a longstanding, solid reputation 1000 times over, before I dropped big dollars with an unknown importer/breeder/store on the basis that that seller has made their own certificate saying the fish are good in their opinion. I mean, I could print something that looks like a high quality certificate on my home computer with a $60 printer, that says my convicts are descended of the royal family and have 1/4 unicorn blood. That doesn't make it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joller Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 yep, i've bought fish that are 'wild' or f1/f2, but i'll only 100% trust the word of a reputable person selling them, otherwise i buy them as fish that are labeled wild but might not beand some lines definitely show more colour than wilds, but there are alot of species that arn't line bred that do degrade over time, because f20 fish have years of brother sister ancestry that has no form of selection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosedagoose Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Dicksta im hearing ya mate. Unknown importer nope i wouldn't either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristlenut Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 so some f1 kigomas that came from a well known importer in melbourne (one female has 6 bars on one and 7 on the other side, one female has a split bar) should be a better bloodline for purity than some bought from a breeder here locally that selectively breeds for good shape, colour,size and straight bars.and i can get them a lot cheaper locally and can usually see the fish before i give my money over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 From a purely genetic/health stand point - adding the wild / F1 / import fish will add a robustness to your colony that staying local (many generation in bred from minimal original stocks) just wont ever be able to achieve. Of course, as stated, it's all about the trust in the 'new blood' being genuine, as opposed to shonky/badly bred fish being passed of as imports to make a quick $$. Which unfortunately has happened more than once.Fish have uneven/broken bars in the wild. Once you start culling for unnatural traits and/or purely aesthetic reasons (I'm talking aesthetics that aquarists look for vs. aesthetics that fish look for when choosing to mate) as opposed to health/deformity, you're no longer dealing with wild type fish but line bred strains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosedagoose Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 "Duck is spot on" Ultimately the choice is yours, Papers no papers... i think the key is here to buy from well established breeders\importers\lfs whatever,, if the rep is good then "trust" should be there.Happy fishing, and keep on keeping on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E4G13M4N Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 So that is a certificate from an importer/breeder who acknowledges that any wild caught fish have passed through multiple sets of hands before landing.Africa - catchers, exporters (possibly one company - possibly not)Germany - importers/exports (as above)Also the company seems not to maintain their web address anymore?My opinion only - But I'd buy from someone with a longstanding, solid reputation 1000 times over, before I dropped big dollars with an unknown importer/breeder/store on the basis that that seller has made their own certificate saying the fish are good in their opinion. I mean, I could print something that looks like a high quality certificate on my home computer with a $60 printer, that says my convicts are descended of the royal family and have 1/4 unicorn blood. That doesn't make it so.It may also have more credability if the spelling was correct, simple spell check helps in making documents you want to have taken seriously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cichlabxr Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Once you start culling for unnatural traits and/or purely aesthetic reasons You end up with the problems they have in the Dog Breeding world. Plus as ducksta said before .what links thepaper to the fish. Nothing except the persons word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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