RD. Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I personally think that it's rather naive to think that one can compare the cost of one pellet food to another, without considering the cost of the raw ingredients between each product. Apples to apples? I don't think so. Try sourcing generic fish meal made from processing plant waste, and then source the same volume of whole Herring meal from the cold waters of Canada. Let me know how that plays out. While you're at it check on the price of Antarctic Krill meal, and compare it to generic shrimp meal, which again is typically dirt cheap in comparison & also made from processing plant waste. (shells & heads)It's like comparing sliced apples, to apple cores. This is exactly why a product such as Hikari Bio-Gold, costs almost twice the price of Hikari Gold.The more a company puts into the overall cost of manufacturing the food, the more they need to get out of it. This is precisely why one can buy commercial generic *cichlid* farm feed for a fraction of the cost of many of the more premium brands. Every single raw ingredient that goes in to a fish food comes in various grades, and various prices.If a manufacturer uses premium grades, they pay premium prices. It's that simple. Also, almost all of these premium ingredients have shot up in price over the past few years. The cost of Herring meal is now almost the same cost as Antarctic Krill meal. In reality the actual price of making a premium fish food keeps going up, not down. At the end of the day you generally get what you pay for. For some people the extra cost for more premium foods may not be worth it, that becomes a personal call based on each individuals personal situation. As far as prices from one geographic area to another. As Waruna has pointed out, the costs involved for those who live outside of the lower 48 States are significantly higher. New Life pays the freight in the USA, and unless one lives in the same State as the manufacturer there aren't even State taxes added on. I'm in the same situation as Waruna, and even with living just across the border from the USA there is no way that I can compete with USA prices, nor can the retailers that I supply. Yearly government import permits, freight, brokerage fees, taxes, etc, all add up in a hurry. Every year for the past 7 yrs running the costs of running my business have increased. My power bill alone has doubled since this time last year. The bottom line is that on almost every level the cost of doing business, as well as the overall cost of living where I live in Canada, is far greater than in the USA. As Waruna stated, some of this is not as simplistic as it may seem on the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFishkeeper Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I am a long-time keeper and breeder of african rift lake cichlids, I believe NLS is a very good food and I use it in my fishroom, along with other food brands I have found to suit my needs. To answer your first question waruna, when I can obtain NLS buckets for around the $100.00 mark or less, I buy them and use it extensively. When I cannot obtain NLS for this figure, I explore alternatives, usually buying and using less of the NLS and more of alternative foods. Just like your business and RD's business, the costs of running a serious hobbyist fishroom are constantly increasing, and I simply cannot afford to pay more than around $50.00 per kilo for the amount of food I use. If you are wanting to access more of the serious hobbyist market like myself, you may need to review distribution methods for the buckets for this market.Cheers, Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malrift Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 AOA prices are always going to be lower than actual proper retailers. So they shouldnt be compared to with the average lfs. It is also well known they get a better price than the average lfs due to the amount they buy. So if you really want to compare pricing check out the lfs rather than the online store. It is also known that sera an hikari dont offer the same deals at least here in qld. Ok i agree with all the extra costs that is involved in importing products such as these. Which adds a qujite significant amount to the retail price of the product but how about placing every lfs on a level playing field rather than allowing one dominate over another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waruna Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Thank you for the input Doug. You don't think by using a higher quality food (NLS or another brand for that matter) you will save money in the long run? By feeding less.. Less pollution.. Healthier fish.Do you feed your fish by the quantity rather than the amount a certain type/size fish required for it's overall growth/health?This should be looked at as if buying a decent car vs a cheapy! Otherwise there is no point in paying a bit extra.. If i had only looked at the bottom line rather than quality, superior nutritional value and the over all performance of NLS when i was breeding fish and selling them to LFS here in Perth i wouldn't be here talking to you. Doug what i'm trying to say is simply by weighing a kg of NLS and comparing this Kg to another Kg of another food/brand may not be the best way to approach this situation. AOA prices are always going to be lower than actual proper retailers. So they shouldnt be compared to with the average lfs. It is also well known they get a better price than the average lfs due to the amount they buy.And you know this from working for me or for Ben? Or this is just the general assumption.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFishkeeper Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 My fish are always fed a varied diet of quality food which includes NLS, waruna, and I have a long standing reputation as a consistent breeder of quality healthy fish. What I'm saying is the proportion of NLS I use in my fishroom is related to the price I can obtain it for, and as you initially asked for a figure to be put on that threshold, I have provided that for you. As I said previously, if you are wanting to access more of the serious hobbyist market, you may need to review distribution methods for the buckets for this market.Cheers, Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 .... At optimum protein levels, with the correct protein profile.... ~35% or above, growth rate differences are going to be negligible. Herring meal or fish meal or the raw amino acids pretty much makes no difference in growth rates from quite a bit of reading I have done.Pollution can be fixed with waterchanges, with semi automated systems an extra pwc every so often is not hard.We do understand what you are saying and no denying NLS is high quality, but at a certain price it becomes uneconomical. This price will differ for different people, and very slightly slower growth rates can still be more viable than an expensive food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malrift Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 great dodge waruna after all you are the king of it. Funny who talks when they no longer have anything to do with someone hey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 .... At optimum protein levels, with the correct protein profile.... ~35% or above, growth rate differences are going to be negligible. Herring meal or fish meal or the raw amino acids pretty much makes no difference in growth rates from quite a bit of reading I have done.Growth is not the only factor, nor the most important factor, when one is comparing the quality of a feed, any feed, and the overall health of a fish. If in fact growth is the main factor in someones fish room, then clearly premium foods are not required. Any cheap generic trout chow will provide good gains in growth. But that's about all it will provide. And mattrox, you are incorrect with regards to your amino acid assumption, there is a significant difference between both the crude protein levels, and amino acid profiles of various fish meals on the market. Low grade fish meals derived from processing plant waste can be as low as 50-55% crude protein, with higher quality fish meals such as Herring meal, coming in at 70-75% crude protein, and a far superior amino acid profile. If you think those kinds of differences are going to result in a "negligible" difference in growth when incorporated at the same inclusion rate levels, you're dead wrong. Not only that, but if growth is the only factor being considered, then fatty acid levels become almost as important as amino acids. Keep reading .......I certainly understand where Doug is coming from, as previously stated for some people the extra cost for more premium foods may not be worth it, that becomes a personal call based on each individuals personal situation. While I have no idea how things are done in AU, on this side of the pond most wholesale distributors (of any type of goods) offer some kind of discount for large volume purchases. That doesn't necessarily mean that those same discounts aren't available to all vendors. I know in my case all vendors have the same opportunity with regards to prices, and discounts. Do large volume buyers get a better deal than someone who spends a few hundred dollars 3 or 4 times a year? Damn straight they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malrift Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 actually waruna if you say it is not happening then who am i to argue. It must be another reason why many shops are unable to compete on price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malrift Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 RD thank you for your honesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I guess we have to disagree on amino acid profile, we must be reading different research.Of course the situation is more complex with regards to nutrition, but the point raised was growth rates. And this thread was primarily bucket price, I was trying to stay on topic. None the less there are lots of ways to provide complete nutrition on a budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 malrift .............. I think you forget that a distributor typically does not control end prices. The laws here in Canada are very strict in that regards (as I believe they are in AU), even though many of the large distributors here do enforce mimimum advertised prices (in underhanded ways), it's completely illegal, and I have never enforced prices. I only get involved if/when a retailer decides to get stupid, as in blowing out my product as a loss leader. That I can control, everything else with regards to pricing falls on the retailers end of things. I offer a MSRP, which is a "suggested" retail price. Some stores go with the MSRP, some below the MSRP, and some for well over the MSRP. The ironic part is the vendors that get the best prices, sell for the same as everyone else, and pocket the extra revenue. They do not pass their savings on to the consumer. Whatta surprise! lolThe level playing field that you seemingly want, would only happen if ALL retailers sold EVERYTHING they bought at the EXACT same fixed prices, and that only happens when prices are strictly enforced by the suppliers. Trust me, that type of pricing structure is not a good scenario for the end consumer, which is why it is illegal in many parts of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 mattrox ................. in regards to growth, at the end of the day it all boils down to the FCR (feed converion ratio) of a food, and the cost of that food. It doesn't matter how high of quality a food is, if you spend $10 in feed to raise a fish that you eventually sell for $5. As an example, I recently had a Koi farmer/breeder call me up about buying NLS in bulk for his Koi farm. He wanted to buy a LOT of buckets, but when I asked about the quality & prices of his grow outs, I immediately realized that he hadn't thought this through very well. These were not high end Koi. I explained to him that even though NLS would give superior results in overall health, and a lower FCR, when he compared the cost per KG, vs a generic farm feed, he would have to sell his grow outs for 2-3 times the price in order to end up with the same profit margin. I actually talked this person out of buying the food. On a large scale commercial basis, no one is feeding premium food such as some of the foods hobbyists have available to them. Economics 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E4G13M4N Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 you cant price fix in Australia, some wholesalers used to try and have a recommended retail price but cant enforce it.As to AOA prices compared to LFS price, i know a lot of stores that are similar price to AOA only a couple of $$ in it and some stores are higher or lower, all depends on what their mark up issome shops etc may only mark up 50% on the buckets and up to 100% on smaller tubs, some may mark up 100% on their buckets the same as their smaller containers that has nothing to do with wholesale prices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Exact same situation here in the great white north. Years ago I used to have vendors complain to me on a regular basis, as though lower or higher prices at nearby shops were somehow my fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canberra Alex Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 *Alex steps on soap box and takes a deep breath*Thanks for this comments RD you are very active in defending NLS (on many other forums too) but I think you are a little out of your depth trying to justify the price here in AUST from where you are sitting.Heres why:if you compare the RRP prices of a 2.2 kg bucket in Canada or the US to the price in AUST the prices are almost double. Not withstanding the import costs treatment costs etc to get product into AUST; which would increase the AUST RRP but not by almost 100%... this is a fact.... it is more about profiteering as you sayhere are some numbers to show the price difference,These are some prices I lifted from open source online store in Canadahttp://quintereef.ca...-life-spectrum/ $65 for a bucket of NLSCompared to our (arguably) cheapest source AOA of ~$120 for a bucket of NLS,2. As Laurie previously statedI could purchase 200 buckets of NLS from either jehmco.com or kensfish.com at full retail price, have them freighted here using their ordinary postal service for a cost of about US$76 per bucket which I would guess is somewhere around the wholesale price.The prices indicated above is the cost of purchasing the product retail overseas and shipping to AUST. US$76 to have the product delivered to his door from the US.A phone call to Tass Elliott 02 8334 7570 from DAFF indicated the 12 month permit should cost less than $2500 (and I acknowledge the other costs involved) but I am assured this is not cost prohibitive.Also if the total costing to import (including treatments taxes etc) fish foods does equal a ~100% increase to the US or Canadan RRP when sold in AUST; why dont we see this cost carried over on other Brands? are the other brands not subject to the same import costs?Example:Tetra colour bits http://www.aquamerik...re_tetra&lg=eng $19 canada online prices 300g tubAOA $25 Aust online price300g tubNLS 300g http://www.aquamerik..._Newlife&lg=eng $15 for 300gAOA online $33 for 300gclearly there is a difference.RD don’t take this personally or the wrong way…. we agree that NLS is a good product when that is in question defend that; but don’t pretend to think you can justify or compare the inflated price here in AUST based on your expriance with increased cost in Canada compared to the US or because you are the canadian distrubuter.The food is a great product and well regarded; most users who fork out their hard earned cash for it think it is overpriced. And because of this many other hobbyists are not purchasing the product. Personally i dont think this is isolated to the NLS brand, but Waruna asked what we think about his productAs i said i use the product and fork out for it but i (as do many others) still think it is over priced.Further what is starting to grate at my goat is, Waruna jumped on a public forum and asked what the public thinks about the prices of his products. Then when he heard something he dosent like he defends the price vigorously with no real footings to his arguments, Mate if you didnt want to know what we think, dont ask the question, its simple.*stepping of soap box now* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I am still trying to work out why Waruna asked for comments on the price of the buckets and then defends the prices as they are? It seems pointless, maybe he was thinking people where going to say its too cheap.I also thought it was a level playing field when it came to the wholesale price. The price on the shelf depended on the individual shops. I know that Waruna imports it, but in NSW we have another distrubritor from memory. Is this the same in other states and how does this affect retaill prices having another "middle man" in the equation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malrift Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 dont get me wrong i know stores have different mark ups. I havent just started in the hobby. I have taken time to speak to stores. I sold fish to lfs in the past. I have mates that run stores and worked them i have seen the wholesale list price first hand. There are stores that make next to no profit on the buckets in the hope that they will get people through the door t buy something else. I also know lfs that wont even stock the product cause they cant compete with the price offered on internet stores. A lot of family owned or privately owned stores cant afford to buy big. For one of two reasons. They either dont have the working capital or they dont have the space to store large orders. So to wholely blame the stores is very misleading. Especially when discounts are offered by the distributor to one store and not another. Price fixing is not even in the equation, and what is meant by a level playing field is aimed at incentives to allow the little store a chance. Not just cause they do massive orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobaltcraig Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Josh yep thats why I asked the question I did If you know your selling price is fantastic you dont need to ask in open forum unless you are trying to work out why you arent selling -mooving as much as you would likeI run just under 50 tanks I wont name other brands because thats unfair and we are talking about nls hereI try and balance good product (food) x dollars and then I have a result I am happy with and my fish areTo buy 5 kgs of good pellet cost me $250 and that works for meIf I had 1 display tank I would use spectrum (nls)Hope that helpsCraig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobaltcraig Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Someone mentioned price fixing up there on another post People can sell /but at what ever price they want thats okBut if its found out that a distributor for example tells a retail outlet that this is the lowest price you are allowed to sell at that is price fixingas I remember it from my business law studyscheerscraig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chorrylan Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 *Alex steps on soap box and takes a deep breath*....lol I've had pretty much the same post sitting in a text editor (even the same links and prices) most of the day and just logged back in to post it but found you'd beaten me.A quick snoop of the net came up with the following geographical index of retail NLS bucket prices converted to AU$ along the lines of the big-mac index United States US$50, AU$46 Canada CA$65, AU$60 United Kingdom GB$65, AU$96 New Zealand NZ$157, AU$122 Australia AU$130(anyone got others?)RD from his post earlier has to deal with many of the same additional cost factors as apply here (albeit with a few less km's) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Please keep the personal attacks out of the discussion. I presume that Waruna wants to hear constructive comments but personal attacks will not be tolerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Thanks for this comments RD you are very active in defending NLS (on many other forums too) but I think you are a little out of your depth trying to justify the price here in AUST from where you are sitting.I'm not trying to justify the price in AU, I was simply attempting to point out that prices overall, even when located just across the border from the USA, are not as simplistic as some people think.As an example, there are individuals in Canada that actually buy from US suppliers, and smuggle the food across the border sans Federal permits, Federal taxes, Provincial taxes, etc. This is a real problem here, with many products. Most of these types of vendors carry little inventory, and some sell out of their basement and can afford to undercut other online vendors, which on a whole up here sell NLS for $70 a bucket. These vendors are working off of VERY thin margins. Too thin for most brick & mortar retail outlets to survive, where NLS buckets typically are priced at $80-90 CAD. Something that your snoop of the net isn't going to find for you.This online vendor, the largest in Canada, sells the buckets for $110.00 CAD, with their US based portion selling the exact same buckets for $50.00 CAD.http://www.bigalspet...hRank=salesrankUsing the odd vendor who decides for whatever reason to sell a product for just over cost isn't a realistic comparision, anymore than it would be to use the highest priced vendor, such as in the link above.The vast majority of online vendors in Canada sell the buckets for $70, with LFS prices being $80-90. And this is exactly how things play out in the USA, the vast majority of LFS in the US charge $60-70 US, not $50.00I also know lfs that wont even stock the product cause they cant compete with the price offered on internet stores.That happens here as well with some products. But that's just how business works. It's naive to think that there is any kind of level playing field in business, any business. At the end of the day money talks, and BS walks. Sorry, but it's a dog eat dog world out there, a scenario fully endorsed by the very Govt that protects its consumers from price fixing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chorrylan Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Using the odd vendor who decides for whatever reason to sell a product for just over cost isn't a realistic comparision, anymore than it would be to use the highest priced vendor, such as in the link above.The vast majority of online vendors in Canada sell the buckets for $70, with LFS prices being $80-90. And this is exactly how things play out in the USA, the vast majority of LFS in the US charge $60-70 US, not $50.00The Australian prices being mentioned here are mostly from one of the biggest and cheapest online retailers in our country; that's a more-than-fair benchmark for australian retail pricing. I know of no brick-and-mortar shop that can beat that pricing on a consistant basis (if for no other reason than this particular retailer commits to beating competitors prices by 10% ).Remember we're talking about bucket pricing here and for some of us in multiples of a dozen or more in a purchase, that's not really the forte of the average bricks-and-mortar LFS'.Comparable pricing in any other geography would be mainstream internet vendors (ie not ebay and backyard operators) willing and able to ship to the Oz.The US pricing I mentioned fits this criteria (I and many others here regularly trade with kensfish and jehmco).The Canadian pricing just happend to be the first one I found but I assumed you'd corect me if it was wildly wrong... (some hyperlinks to stores from http://www.cichlid-food-canada.com/retail.html instead of just physical addresses would have been helpful... is that your site?)As part of the NLS distribution chain I presume you (or Waruna ) have access to NLS recommended retail pricing for various localities.Would either of you be willing to post it up on this thread to save the guesswork.It's hardly commercially sensative information for anyone so I can't imagine why anyone would have a concern with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waruna Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 As I said previously, if you are wanting to access more of the serious hobbyist market, you may need to review distribution methods for the buckets for this market.Cheers, DougHi Doug, for this reason i sent you a PM this morning...you cant price fix in Australia, some wholesalers used to try and have a recommended retail price but cant enforce it.As to AOA prices compared to LFS price, i know a lot of stores that are similar price to AOA only a couple of $$ in it and some stores are higher or lower, all depends on what their mark up issome shops etc may only mark up 50% on the buckets and up to 100% on smaller tubs, some may mark up 100% on their buckets the same as their smaller containers that has nothing to do with wholesale prices Thank you, 100% correct, I can only recommend a price. I have no control over pricing.. By law if i'm not happy with a customer, a retailer/reseller in this case I can simply not sell to them..That is all I can do.. I don't even have to give a reason. Retail pricing is completely up to the reseller. So i'm not going to comment on who sells at what price..A phone call to Tass Elliott 02 8334 7570 from DAFF indicated the 12 month permit should cost less than $2500 (and I acknowledge the other costs involved) but I am assured this is not cost prohibitive.As I said before the amount depend on the number of formulas! I have no idea how Tass came to this figure, this is very wrong, it is much much more...Further what is starting to grate at my goat is, Waruna jumped on a public forum and asked what the public thinks about the prices of his products. Then when he heard something he dosent like he defends the price vigorously with no real footings to his arguments, Mate if you didnt want to know what we think, dont ask the question, its simple.We can't compare US or Canadian pricing in AUS.. Like Neil pointed out some retailers have a markup of less than 10%! No retailer or wholesaler in AUS will be able to survive this way.Lol I could say the same thing after listening to some here, no matter what I say about pricing most here simply can't understand how many other fees and charges are involved before the prodcuts are displayed at a retailer in AUS. Did you miss that whole post? Please try and not think what I am thinking, I came here to have a conversation and explain my side of the story, I just did that. I knew that no one product or a service can please everyone. I have had those who have said thanks for putting the prices down and keeping it there for all this time, and have had some say the opposite. At the end of the day if i can buy something for cheaper i would too, so i understand this. Who knows one day i could end up at one of your work/businesses and demand a discount, or worst just leave, this is part of life However i will keep asking this question....I've read all your comments, thank you for taking the time. I think i tried to explain this as best as i could, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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