NSWCS buying power?

[gianniz]

its been done before right?

was it sucessful?

i mean, our hobby needs more variety so we should make it an agenda to so

there are many excellent breeders in our society so if nswcs imports fish (we can ask Grant to import)

then these breeders breed the crap out of them and apply similar rules like for the species preservation program.

I know this was brought up before time and time again but it was always dismissed.

I say instead of thinking too hard, the society should vote for it and act upon it.

based on Grants Price listing for his recent imports, it's not going to be a huge burden and I can't say for other members but I'm more than happy to chip in few $2-10 donation to help start the program as well.

Also once they start selling the frys, we can promote it furhter in the meeting and use the proceeding to import more fish for our hobby so cycle starts again .

Currently too many individuals are doing this thus increasing in prices which in these hard times, this model isn't working well.

what do other members think?

PS. please don't reply reasons why nswcs can't do this as there's no reason why it can't be done if we REALLY WANTED TO DO THIS!

[Josh]

It was done a long time ago (I think)when the hobby was a much different beast. Not many people that attend the meeting are there for the meetings. There is never a post asking what the talk is going to be about, but there is always a thread asking what are people bringing to the "mini-auction"

Who is going to organise it?

Who is going to supervise it?

Who will get/hold fish?

I always fun to have an idea and think it out load, but in practice it is that easy to do.

[sorroz]

Hi Gianniz

Any financial member of the club can submit an idea ..in fact we as a committee welcome it

You only have to hear the deafening silence at general business to know what most of the membership have to contribute

For your idea to go ahead with any real chance you will need to write out a detailed submission as to how you intend this to work and send or hand it to the secretary or president with your full name and membership number attached, it will then be discussed at a committee meeting and submitted to a general meeting for discussion.

It will NOT happen if you expect the committee to do all the work , or to act due to a annonymous post idea on the internet. As you have already pointed out the idea has been rejected in the past by the membership. As we already have a species maintenance program in place to manage someone will need to come up with a new idea for this to work.

Regards

Kevin

[Foti]

i have no problem in sorting out peoples oppinion and discuss the next fish for import!

i can also keep you Kevin and other officals informed of the species being imported and dealing with all of it !

but

for the life of me i cant figure out who pays what!

as i dont find it fare that people who will not get the fish should pay for them!

unless the club pays for the first batch of fish then all the funds of the fry being sold will be put in a pot to organise the next one and once the owner of the group has produced the amount of money that his group costed then they will be allowed to keep 90% from there on in!

this way each batch gets paid off and then the club can get funds from it for future investments or in costs running the meets!

so if you would like me to put something together i can then i can start a thried to find what fish we can import first!

please let me know!

[sorroz]

Please submit any detailed proposal in writing as above .

The biggest hurdle you are going to have with this ,is that all the fish that are legally importable are in no danger of being lost to the hobby

The species maintenance program currently with the NSWCS is to try and identify and save the hundreds of other species that can no longer be imported from being lost to the hobby the same way so many others have .

Any proposal will as always be looked into once submitted .

Regards

Kevin

[Josh]

And this is why it fell through on so many occasions.

i dont find it fare that people who will not get the fish should pay for them!

and

so if you would like me to put something together i can then i can start a thried to find what fish we can import first!

If you dont pay then why should yo have a say in what fish is bought?

On the flip side why does it have to be done by the NSWCS? Why couldnt it be an ACE breeders program, or just get five mates getting together and sharing the cost? If there was enough interest here why doesnt a few members get together and do it.

I will tell you why.

There are two many people who won't fork out good money for good fish in this hobby. I dont see why The NSWCS has to prop up their breeding hopes and dreams.

At the end of the day if you are serious about saving/importing a species, do it for yourself. Pay up the money and get the fish, or try and hunt them down.

[Foti]

Sounds good to me I just thought il let the committe know that I could help

I'm on my phone otherwise I would of brought forward a quote or 2

As with what I said will insure the club to continue receving a income from the breeding stocks fry

But point was made by sorrez that if there importable then they are not at risk so why do it?

[gianniz]

preserving fish is great but surely everyone can agree to a point this model isn't working well.

personally I believe this club has turned into a place to pickup cheap yellows! (bit tiring i think).

nothing exciting has been done, common even the preservative fish list hasn't changed since 2004!! (and if you have please update your website)

Also with donations and so on... why not have some program where if you donate $10 then later on when the frys are available, you get $10 off! (for those who count every penny, and for those like me who actually would donate those small amount, even if there's only 1% chance it would make this hobby that I love better!)

again not all members have to say yes right? or do they???

also if 20% of the members say yes, can we use 20% of the clubs finances to organise this? pr is it majority rules?

majority rules is an old and aging and definitely proven in the past to be crap model as it doesn't promote diversity and history has told us it stops evolution!

ps. btw this isn't an attack to any club commitee members. they do fantastic job in running the club. I just posted this hoping we can inject some variety and excitement back into the club and our hobby.

pps just because a fish is on an importable list doesn't mean they are available and definitely not cheap! just check out the prices on livefish.

[cooder]

I like it! If members really wanted it then they could donate the money that they made at the auctions towards it? Well, i dont really know how the auctions works so i cant talk. we have to remember that most new stores spends alot to get running, but in the long run they make more money than they spent. And with this many enthusiasts crying for quality fish, its sure to flourish... (maybe )

If the NSWCS did accept the idea than who would catch the fish? if these fish are very rare or non-existent in the hobby there would be a reason, maybe they cant be caught succesfully? or shipped? or just cant be found in nature?

I suppose Grant is a good start for your africans but then again, you can just order them from him!

something to talk about atleast!

[gianniz]

cooder, i have no problem buying directly from Grant as I do anyway.

This idea was brought up to help the mass get rarer/uncommon fish at much cheaper price (like we do for yellows and stuff).

If an individual buys the fish and breeds it, they will get their money back and plus a bit more.... it also takes longer and the prices will be higher! I want to bring some idea to lessen the individuals pocket, whilst allowing more varieties for our hobby.

example, lets say fish x costs $50 each to import. Now most probably can afford to buy 4-6 fish (realistically). chances of these fish being same sex, dying etc so you might not even get a pair!

However if society buys it, or even subsides 50% then with same amount of money, we can get more, thus increasing the chances of breeding. Also if society owns the fish, then if sex ratio isn't good, then we can always swap with other members in the same program.

Also as the fish grows and frys established etc, then the original fish can be sold off and proceeding goes to society. Also for those who were lucky enough get involved in the breeding program can get their initial investment through selling frys. Once they get their investment back, then the fish totally belongs to the society.

Remember this isn't to make money but to promote more active ways to increase variety and make them more readily available without costing an arm and a leg to an individual.

Also don't most agree that for the last however many meeting, theres just too many sellers opposed to buyers??

IMO this is due to tedious amount of same fish we have to deal with and not enough variety.

Also doesn't the Illawarra and ACT ones have a similar buying program even though they are much smaller than NSWCS?

Again this is just what I thought in 10 minute so I think if we can be little selfless we can do something great for the mass. (which also means you)

Oh Ace can do it too, but i don't pay membership fee so we don't have a voice here. Also from my observations, there are fantastic enthuiest and breeder I see at the meeting (both commitee and non commitee) who puts their time and effort every months (which isn't easy! trust me those who went to last feb meeting will know that even in an oven they ran the meeting extremely well) . This could be a way to say thank you.

[sorroz]

also if 20% of the members say yes, can we use 20% of the clubs finances to organise this? pr is it majority rules?

majority rules is an old and aging and definitely proven in the past to be crap model as it doesn't promote diversity and history has told us it stops evolution!

As an Incorporated society we have to abid by those rules ...not just make them up as we go ..so a majority vote of those present is neccessary

Also doesn't the Illawarra and ACT ones have a similar buying program even though they are much smaller than NSWCS?

Illawarra did have and it turned out to be a very expensive way to not see any returns to the club

Maswa

I sort of like the idea.

What happens if the committee votes no like they have in the past but the members vote yes?

When has this ever happened ? if the majority votes for it then it will be implemented ..quite the opposite of what you are suggesting has happened with the committee being against something but still having to put the suggestion to the membership (that was submitted in the correct and acceptable way in writing with name and membership number ) and was accepted and is now part of the clubs rules . No changes to the rules are passed without the membership approving

Again guys you can post till the electric yellows disappear from the hobby ( the same ones that always sell as opposed to the rare species that regularly get passed in ) but nothing will happen until you submit your detailed proposal in writing as already pointed out .

Gianniz

Thankyou for pointing out all the problems with the running of the meetings (that we already know about)

as the majority of people only attend the meetings for the auctions to buy or sell fish ...there is little if not no interest in the running of the club (other then the auctions ) we regularly get complaints about why we have all the other stuff that prevents the auction from starting , or being bigger or more major auctions per year

Unless you have a actual question in regard to your submission ..I will leave you all to beat this to death on the internet and will be very surprised if anyone puts a viable submission in writing to the committee ( love to be proven wrong )

Kevin

[Josh]

Also doesn't the Illawarra and ACT ones have a similar buying program even though they are much smaller than NSWCS?

Yes the Illawarra have a similar program to the Sydney club, but what Kevin said about it was right. It cost the club lost of money so that a small percentage of the club can benifit. Rare fish a rare for a reason in this country and thats usually because very few people want to keep them any more. The demand for fry is low and it is imposible for the club to make any return on it. Members move on, fry dont sell, fish die. If people feel so strongly about saving species they are, in all honesty, better off just going it alone.

We also have a rule that the fish cant be an alloawble import, for the reason stated earlier in this tread. Basing the program on the Illawarra's model, all ready rules out everything discussed here.

You keep bring up the "yellows" argument, but I will let you in on a little secret. They always sell. They average at or above the average lots valve at every auction. They may be the most common fish out there, but every keeper has had them at some stage of the hobby. They are a main stay in the hobby and always will be. The club would have sold a million of these over the years and they continue to sell. They arent going to go away, they will never be a rare fish (Quantity wise).

Also the plural of fry is fry, "Frys" is what McDonalds sell.

[Foti]

Can someone suggest a fish that they have in mind ?

As like I said il try for those who want it by figuring something out to benifit both members and the committee/club

If you don't want to post here forward me a pm and il get something together

Il forward it to Kevin to proof read I'm sure he won't mind and il be open to his oppinion before I forward it to the club at a meet!

If Kevin or others within the committee believe the fish being disgusted will not have interest by lfs and or others then as stated it will not go forward

[johns]

HEY ALL

It is a good idea and the 1st step would be to find out what is an allowable import we also need to decide if we go with Tangs or Malawi, as there are fewer allowable malawi's to import.

But as kevin said put it in writing and submit it and presto it will get looked at and voted on by the membership

Cheers John

PS 6 days till the auction

[mcloughlin2]

I disagree that the fish should not be on the import list. Any cichlid that is easy to keep, colourful at a young age and currently in very low numbers or very high prices should be on the list. What this hobby needs is some new bread and butter fish, not another fish only appreciated by us 'fanatics' (alot of lake tang fish ring a bell here).

Even a cichlid sp purchased from somewhere in Australia that fits the above criteria would work. Breeding something like a rare shelldweller or sandsifter isn't going to help the hobby grow, but something to replace electric yellows will.

One example; blue electric yellows (forgot the collection point - nkali? )

[intern1]

To be honest reading these posts if this was to work which logistically and financially it won't

It seems to be a way to make a fish that is new more common therefore reducing the cost and effectively screwing the people that have bought the fish into the country and have been keeping them whilst others have never wanted to dpemdbthe dollars to get them here

John

[Link2Hell]

or Victorian or African riverine or American or Madagascan or Sri Lankan

to me it would have to be more of a reason to sustain the species rather

than subsidise someone that wants to buy a species that are expensive

not because they are hard to find due to limited numbers or not being an

allowable import

as far as this sort of project happening previously with the club the answer is yes

and history normally will repeat itself and there is no guarentee of success when

dealing with livestock and even then after a period the interest disappeared

but as Illawarra also found it's not always the right people that end up getting the fish

and even after it is all done when the medal pinning and back patting is over where do

the fish go ....... the Ps. livingstoni project comes to mind, so where are they now ?

NSWCS had a big push for Americans and it was very successful but like all things

fashions change, people want different fish and will clear out their collection to

replace it with something new, poor breeding practices, natural attrition,leaving the hobby

and acts of God all play into the continued life of a species in the hobby

I can think of plenty that I use to have or have seen and are all gone now

with rising costs it isn't finacially viable for most hobbiests to keep species that don't pay

and it looks like it will only get worse with the talk of increasing power and water charges

it takes a lot of dedication to persist with a species that become a better return as live food

than the cost of raising the fry

as noted previous anything that has a small circle of interest no matter it's value will pass in or

be bought for next to nothing by someone that didn't really want the fish but bought it because

it was cheap, the end result can usually be the fish is lost to furthering the species

if you want a wide variety then that's what LFS use to keep clients coming in, if you want cheap

then that's why you buy from breeders or auctions but the choice is less, the more people you can

contact increases the chance of finding species that are harder to find and some things just are

impossible to find at times

Chris

[mcloughlin2]

It seems to be a way to make a fish that is new more common therefore reducing the cost and effectively screwing the people that have bought the fish into the country and have been keeping them whilst others have never wanted to dpemdbthe dollars to get them here

If this is how I read it then this is the sort of price fixing attitude that is causing a crash in this hobbies popularity. We as dedicated hobbiests make up a very small percentage of the hobby. Your average Joe who walks in the local fish shop and sets up a 4ft cichlid setup is what keeps the hobby going.

Without local aquarium shops there are no wholesalers, no wholesalers there are no importers, no importers no fish. The same average Joe will not keep buying electric yellows, mainganos, electric blues and peacocks for his tank once he has bought his 1 male and 3 female. He will likely stop buying fish. Unless he can be offered new species of cichlids at reasonable prices.

or Victorian or African riverine or American or Madagascan or Sri Lankan

I just don't see the market for most these types of fish. How many of these species are colourful at a young age, easy to keep and easy to breed are there?

[intern1]

Saying that there isn't a market because of the difficulty isn't correct because as humans we are more inclinded to

a challenge therefore people move into species which aren't as pretty but harder to breed because people want to be challenged

[LithoMan]

once every 2 months we can do a project similar to the similus breeding challenge program..buy from the auction and then people will buy and breed them...Hoping the fish we get every 2 months are a new fish(imported or bloodline) or fish that are disappearing from the hobby.This way they can make money selling the fish to the breeders and the breeders make money off selling them and doing good for the industry.

strike a deal with people like grant and other importers and have the fish that has been chosen exclusive to the committee for the first 6 months.So no one goes and buys direct.

My 2 cents worth lol

its practically been done now but just make a program out of it with benefits

[mcloughlin2]

Saying that there isn't a market because of the difficulty isn't correct because as humans we are more inclinded to

a challenge therefore people move into species which aren't as pretty but harder to breed because people want to be challenged

Sure the small minority of us who par take in keeping multiple tanks will move on to these rarer, more expensive and harder to keep fish.

We are the minority though and the hobby will benefit far more from another half a dozen bread and butter cichlids then it will from some new ultra rare pleco or the introduction of an ugly Lake Victorian cichlid that has only 10 left in the entire world.

[gianniz]

I'll try have soemthign in writing for april meeting, so hopefully Foti you can too

oh when I say rarer just means non electric yellows something different.

and yes I know e yellows are the best selling fish.

what I know some hobbiest will spend arm and a leg hoping to get their money back and realise the market crashed and they are stuffed.

just check out the L cat scene. it's pretty much dead here.

when Grant put up a list of importable fish (like the feather fins) there were fair bit of interest. Great price but once again someone is still taking the risk. Also whoever takes the fish must write a monthly journal/observation thus knowledge sharing is mandatory.

[rosco]

the Ps. livingstoni project comes to mind, so where are they now ?

Plenty at my place Chris . And possibly a large breeding pair or 2 coming up the major auction this weekend. I think judging on the numbers in my fry savers, and the gigantic mouthful one of the girls has, there might be a few coming through NSWCS auctions in 3 months or so for some period of time. .

Providing I can keep the fish (like the P similis) I am happy to use if a tanks for these conservation programs. Given it was an malawi cichlid that I knew I could have a shot at, I think I may have been first in line . I do something similar for the local fish club (sometimes at great expense to myself because those damn dwarves cichlids keep killing each other), and will continue to do so. But that the advantage of having 44 tanks, so that make it easier for me and builds up my fish karma.

cheers

rosco

[couchy]

I enjoy all aspects of the meetings. Despite some stupid comments there is a good idea here.

The title was "NSWCS buying power" i thought it was directed at the power we could have as a group in getting bulk discounts on dry goods or live stock, now thats something worth discussing. Eg getting a price on 10 buckets of NLS for 10 members who are interested etc. Or a price on not 5 imported frontosa but 50???

I made a suggestion to George a few meetings back that a breeding program for good quality E Yellows could be interesting. Get rid of all the washed out rubbish around. This suggestion might make some sick

The hobby relies on these bread and butter fish to support the keeping of rare fish. I, like most breeders, breed yellows, blues and B/N to help pay our bills. I usually bid on yellows if they look good at the meetings but thats getting rarer.

I was lucky enough to get some Similus and they are breeding well. Prior to the breeding challenge i had no interest in this species but got involved to support the species in the interest of the hobby. This is what the club's about after all. I now rate these fish as one of my favourites.

I would be interested in a new challenge every second month if the club could organise it. The current format works well and for me and others, introduces species we wouldn't have kept. The club subsidises the fish in the breeding challenges to some extent which made them very reasonably priced.

Keep up the good work NSWCS and committee.

My 2cents worth.

Cheers Couchy

[efc01]

i have not seen any dimi comps in a while. Might be a worthy candidate, or vc10s for that matter