Deformity

[GlennC]

Hi all

During the last few weeks I’ve looked at a number of aquarium stores around Sydney, taking in the Eastern Suburbs, Southern Suburbs, Inner West, and City. I have also read other’s critiscm of certain aquarium stores off a website (can’t remember the source) and I support that critics thoughts here.

Anyway, yesterday I visited a couple of shops, both visible during landing at Sydney Airport. One has awesome fish and both have lots of cichlids. One shop I regard as having high quality fish, but yesterday I saw a badly deformed Leulupi in the tank. It’s body was short and badly crippled. Looked like it had ot the tank wall at high speed, yet it’s head appeared to be “normal” and it’s mouth was fine. It's ability to swim was impeded and so I actually thought about buying it to give it a good home, thinking that it’s deformity might impede it from entering shells to steal shell dweller fry, as I have shellies, and it still had great colouration. However, if I wanted to get rid of it later, who would want it?

But, the other shop down the road really let me down. I’m sure some would give the best opinion of this shop and so I won’t mention it’s name. Although it does have a very large number of tank, and I actually sold South American cichlids here years ago, I was really annoyed to see it had at least three lots of cichlids that each contained a number of deformed fish.

What really annoys me is that these aquariums had not culled out such fish.

What annoys me even more is that I feel the breeders should have shown some morality and respect for the industry and culled out these fish earlier in life.

Today I visited an aquarium store in the inner West. It also has a lot of nice cichlids as well as some very nice extra large fish. The tanks were clean and I was initially impressed with their stock. But, I was totally put off from buying anything at all from this store as they have a tank that contained less than ten Black Calvus and of those at least three had the most deformed mouths I have ever seen! They had the mouths of a hand puppet! Other Calvus present had less pronounced deformity. I was particularly interested in this tank because of the diversity in deformity. I feel that whoever has passed these fish on has not acted in a fit and proper manner.

So, what’s going on here? Is this profit driven sales of natural occurring deformity that can be expected in any healthy population? I would find that hard to believe? Aside from the obvious lack of conscious in not culling, is it a lack of genetic pool that is causing these deformities?

Will this evolution, in our hands, lead to the Sydney cichlid evolving into a Ranchu?

Cheers

Glenn

[Foti]

i can only speak for my self and this sort of things crack me

im not that bright and i would of bought a deformed fish

not that i would ever buy a fish from an aquarium again

[killiguy]

We happen to be having a discussion on the killifish australia forum about the "Golden panchax"commonly seen in aquarium stores and often deformed but almost always produces deformed fry.

I had the same trouble trying to get decent Apistogrammas.They are often sold deformed and very often produce large proprtion of deformd fry.

A large part of the blame must go to the wholesalers who of course send fish unseen to the retailer.The retailer should send back or not pay for deformed stock and destroy them.

And then there is the issue that some people like some deformed fish like those revolting balloon mollies,rams etc.Muddies the water abit as to what is appropriate to sell.

But I agree its terrible to see these fish in stores

[intern1]

I think you should have named those aquariums that were selling those deformed fish because they bought them in and are selling them therefore they should be named and shamed!

[GlennC]

What I should have done was taken photos of the fish and posted on here and let people just for themselves.

[Skippy]

I think you should have named those aquariums that were selling those deformed fish because they bought them in and are selling them therefore they should be named and shamed!

You like this forum right? Well it won't be around long once it gets sued by the named and shamed aquariums.

[Felicity]

I have 2 deformed apistos, I wont breed them, they will just spend their days chasing guppies.

It was an expensive lesson in rushing to buy fish, and from buying from an aquarium shop who was very surprised that I would buy fish from them to breed(after spending 30+minutes with the staff trying to pick out the perfect lady to breed to the only male for sale lol)

Turned out ok, he is a little bully of a fish and has turned me off dwarf cichlids alltogether.

[GlennC]

There'd be no need to defame the shop at all, especially as, far as I am aware, it's perfectly legal to sell deformed fish. But, it would be in the best interests of the hobby to avoid the inclusion of genetically deformed fish into breeding programs. Therefore, alerting prospective buyers of such fish would seem sensible? At the same time, as I did, acknowledging that such shops also contained "awesome" fish, "high quality fish" is surely not defaming them at all.

Shops containing a large number of tanks with dead fish due to lack of maintenance etc would be a different issue.

I would expect that this issue might ruffle a few feathers.

I think you should have named those aquariums that were selling those deformed fish because they bought them in and are selling them therefore they should be named and shamed!

You like this forum right? Well it won't be around long once it gets sued by the named and shamed aquariums.

[Skippy]

There'd be no need to defame the shop at all, especially as, far as I am aware, it's perfectly legal to sell deformed fish. But, it would be in the best interests of the hobby to avoid the inclusion of genetically deformed fish into breeding programs. Therefore, alerting prospective buyers of such fish would seem sensible? At the same time, as I did, acknowledging that such shops also contained "awesome" fish, "high quality fish" is surely not defaming them at all.

Shops containing a large number of tanks with dead fish due to lack of maintenance etc would be a different issue.

I would expect that this issue might ruffle a few feathers.

I think you should have named those aquariums that were selling those deformed fish because they bought them in and are selling them therefore they should be named and shamed!

You like this forum right? Well it won't be around long once it gets sued by the named and shamed aquariums.

Now, I'm no big city lawyer but the minute you start naming names and accusing shops of selling deformed, sick, illegal, noxious, blue, yellow or whatever fish you are risking defamation proceedings if the named shops feel that their reputation has been harmed or lowered. It doesn't matter if you also say they sell "awesome and high quality fish" if other comments harm or lower their reputation.

Alerting other hobbiests of deformed fish being sold in certain areas is a good thing - no argument! Calls to publicly name and shame is not so clever.

[GlennC]

Well, how do websites like www.notgoodenough.org/n get away with it?

Or, perhaps it's the case that one would need to buy one of these deformed fish first and then have the right to complain?

Perhaps I will have to do a law degree to know the answer...

"Now, I'm no big city lawyer but the minute you start naming names and accusing shops of selling deformed, sick, illegal, noxious, blue, yellow or whatever fish you are risking defamation proceedings if the named shops feel that their reputation has been harmed or lowered. It doesn't matter if you also say they sell "awesome and high quality fish" if other comments harm or lower their reputation.

Alerting other hobbiests of deformed fish being sold in certain areas is a good thing - no argument! Calls to publicly name and shame is not so clever.

[Link2Hell]

Glenn

I totally agree that the number of LFS that prefer quality has reduced

but it is not always a clear cut issue when they get the shipment from

the wholesaler and the wholesalers aim is qty turn over so a few sub

standard fish don't rate a mention after all what do you do with an off

shore supplier send the fish back at your cost because they won't credit

a live delivery or go through and kill the sub standards so you can try

and claim DOA

LFS are not alone in selling poor quality fish with out disclossure

I believe it is against site policy to name businesses with defamitry

statements but .......... you can always advise by PM any inquires

sent by PM to you

It is amazing how fast staff are made to fix problems like dead fish when

it is brought up with a loud comment in a shop with customers at the counter

Standard policy in the shops I use to work in was tank checks done before

the shop opened and any dead fish bagged and into the freezer or sick fish

removed to quaratine tank for medication

It is about time the industry regulated for certification of shops and staff like

it has been talking about for years

Chris

[killiguy]

We shouldnt get too carried away.Name and shame would be wrong,as I mentioned many deformed or mongrel fish are well accepted by the public (balloons,flowerhorns etc)We need to be on the alert if we intend to breed fish esp when buying fish that are prone to deformity(eg killifish Apistos,cetain Rift lakes and the like)Word or mouth (not word of forum which may = defamation suit) is a powerful thing.We all know LFS to avoid.

Caveat emptor ---be very careful when we buy and do so from local breeders preferably, so we can check out the parents or at least a photo

[Link2Hell]

I find that there are still people that buy what ever

and then ask if these fish are compatible or even better

can you ID these fish I bought

While duck season is open you will always have someone

looking to bag out

Research people and accept the blame if you screw up

rather than off loading your responsibility of due care

oh and research, research and more research

Chris

[intern1]

I didnt want to cause offend anyone reputation, but clearly if a shop has poor fish its just good to know because we dont want everyone to be stung by it.

[GlennC]

As my final addition to this thread, I want to note that I wasn't just having a go at the LFS, but any breeder who supplies these shops with deformed fish. I was also hoping to highlight the need for culling, as well as asking why such deformities occur.

Anyway, these questions have been pretty much answered and I take it most (hopefully all) the deformed fish I've seen have come to the LFS from wholesalers. Hopefully the wholesalers have sourced them from O/S and that they are not locally bred fish.

It wasn't my intention to shame any particular LFS, especially as I have stated that such stores may have had otherwise exceptional fish. It is one of my favourite LFS that is selling the Leulupi. I will take the advice though and bring up my concerns with the store if I see such fish again.

I do think such issues as these should treated with as much importance as say the RSPCA would treat inbred dogs. I also personally believe that there is a lack of laws with respect to these issues.

Glenn

[Frenzy]

LFS are not alone in selling poor quality fish with out disclossure

This is true. Don't take this as a complaint anyone because I'm more than happy with purchases I made at my first auction but I have to relate that there was at least one badly deformed fish in one of the lots I bought home. Very hard to see in the bag at the time of purchase I might add.

The world in 2009 dictates that there are charlatans everywhere unfortunately

[Andrew]

I agree. I breed a few species and supply shops and hobbyists with the fry. From the time fry are as little as one cm in size, I start weeding out any that don't make the grade and my Petenias gratefully accept any and all donations...lol

When thought about logically, the deformities will happen in wild fish too, but these are weaker, disadvantaged fish which invariably fall victim to Darwin's theory of Natural Selection. So really, if nature does not select them, nor should we.

[Calamity Jane]

I work in a petshop on Sundays. I am amazed at the number of people who come in and expect every petshop to purchase any old fish.

The petshop I work for will only purchase from suppliers, mind you before our new manager started we had many different types of cichlids tanked together so now have a lot of mixed breeds for sale and who knows what types of crosses half of them are. I feel it affects the stores credibility, if you sell something that is not of standard or even display it and expect people to still puchase your goods then you must be mad!

[Rod54]

You have to take the Good with the Bad....

Sure deformed fish show up in shops....easy...Don't buy them!

Gee....some fish....balloon??? are deformed on purpose!!

Same token....I recently bought a very nice young pair of locally bred Rams(spawned in a week)...for $8 each

I've seen lesser quality fish for $30 each

My point is.....I don't get upset if a shop has poor quality or deformed fish....next shipment maybe fantastic bargains!!! Most shops buy their fish "sight unseen" so they have no control on quality....

.but

if everyone was as picky as me....most lfs would go broke....because they would never sell their fish and that's not Good for the hobby.

90%+ of people buying fish don't breed them...and if they do they don't raise the fry

A deformed fish is very unlikely to get an opportunity to reproduce...unless they are in Asia..

[GlennC]

I understand your point of view, especially as you obviously would have done your research before buying and would know what's good and what's bad. Because you're educated you wouldn't be taking the good with the bad at all; you'd only be taking the good. However, I think it's worth sparing a thought for those who walk into an LFS and buy a fish they take to be healthy and "normal".

I can't look at the situation from the perspective of an LFS owner or attendant cause I've never worked in one before. I do expect that they wouldn't have the time on their hands to thoroughly expect every fish that comes through the door, but when there's one stand out deformed fish in a group of say 30 you've got to wonder if they leave it there because they haven't the time to pull it out (which I can understand) or if they sort of think, "well it might get sold"?

Will add though that most deformed fish I have seen were amongst group of otherwise fine fish. It was the group of deformed Calvus (maybe two thirds of what was in the tank) that really got me though. And, that was from a well respected LFS.